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First of all William, "expanding markets for weight-loss programmes", nice play on words there!

I've been having a debate with PeterKlaver on a different thread about misusing free speech. Peter, you need to know that I'm tempted, seriously tempted, to heap scorn on this particular brand of christianity. I'm fighting hard Peter, but might yet succumb. Pray for me, won't you.

What I will say is this. There's nothing much new here, but as usual Northern Ireland is about 20 years behind the times. I've come across most of it before, in a church I was once in, and asked a few awkward questions at the time. Anyway

Gold teeth. - Old hat. God's been doing that for a while now. Funny that Peter the apostle once said, 'silver and gold have I none.'

White teeth. - Possibly a new take on an old trick. Pearly gates - pearly whites. White as snow. So it's possible.

Gold dust. Old hat. Nothing new there. Funny though, the picture on the link would seem to indicate that God choose to bless only on the right hand side of his blazer.

Oil on hands. Here's a funny thing (funny sad I mean) somebody I met once asked us to 'anoint' our hands with Johnstons baby oil before praying. TRUE TRUE TRUE TRUE TRUE. You might be glad to know I objected!

Spiritual Revival. William most accounts of spiritual revival are a bit strange. Of course the last true revival happened in NI in 1859.

TV revival leader being found guilty of something with a woman. Again, nothing new there.

And that leaves only the weight loss, and given the truth of all the other 'wonders', you never know.

Come to think of it, if everybody who attends the meeting is blessed with weight loss, then they will be able to pack in even more punters on each subsequent evening.

Joshua seems to be linked with a movement called Extreme Prophecies. I thought I'd link one of there videos. It might give new meaning to reaching out to the dead wood in the Church.

There seems to be no limit to the gullibility of some people. I don't know whether these evangelists are sincere, or deranged, or making money, but I can't understand why some people are so prepared to follow this sort of thing. That's what we need to examine.

Hi Agustine

You ask why people may be prepared to follow such things.

Here's a thought for starters.

One. The existence of God is already presumed by these people.

Two. They are particularly zealous people seeking a highly tangible encounter with God.

Three. They are introduced to a brand of christianity in which people are claiming to have regular daily personal encounters with God and feel they are missing out. (interestingly some of the language has a high degree of correlation with 'normal' conservative/evangelical language)

Four. There is a history of mysticism in almost all expressions of christianity.

Five. Generally, there is a low practical emphasis on biblical interpretation.

Hello petermorrow,

"I've been having a debate with PeterKlaver on a different thread about misusing free speech. Peter, you need to know that I'm tempted, seriously tempted, to heap scorn on this particular brand of christianity. I'm fighting hard Peter, but might yet succumb. Pray for me, won't you."

Sure. Did you have any particular deity in mind for me to pray to? I could ask the almighty, merciful and drunkenly incompetent Flying Spaghetti Monster to touch you with His noodly appendages. Feel free to propose any other, but please keep in mind that any petty genocidal maniacs are definitely out.

Hi PeterKlaver

Thanks a lot.

Now let me see.

The Spaghetti Dude-o...hmmmmmm. Is he a vegetarian? I'm not so keen on meat with pasta and try to limit my intake of it as much as possible. Maybe we'll give him a miss.

Petty genocidal maniacs. Indeed, probably too terrifying. I'm sure you mean Baal or Thor or such like.

So maybe we ought to try to find a deity who is prepared to humble himself and act as our servant.

Looks like he and his wife still have a way to go on the weight loss programme themselves.

Funny how it should be working so well for the gullible believers though.

It's more American than I thought. I watched ten minutes of the live stream last night and, as I joined the service, Joshua was asking a man to stand up and prophesying to him that God would deal with his hair loss problem.

All the obsessions of American society: hair, teeth and weight.

I think it's deliberate, to focus on the things we know vulnerable people are anxious about.

Sad.

Oddly enough, I first came across the idea that certain individuals could miraculously create gold in popular Hinduism. It is meant to be proof that an individual is an Avatar.
I can't think of any analogy in the Christian tradition (pace Portwyne, transsubstantiation is based on a Sacramental view of nature, not a miraculous creation of new matter).
So shouldn't someone tell Mr Mills that he is making a serious mistake? That he is more likely to be a Hindu avatar than a Christian prophet?

GV

Who ate all the communion wafers?

Back in the early 1980s, a religious cult in Hollister California called "The University of the Trees" claimed that if you joined them and prayed to their little pyramids, it would keep you healthy and your car's engine tuned.

This guy is probably losing weight because he is too preoccupied counting the money fools who believe in him send in and thinking up more schemes to take the time to pig out the way he used to. In a way, he is no different from any other religious leader, he makes promises nobody can possibly prove have not been kept. If you don't lose weight after joining him, it's because you were not a true believer. Ever get a postcard from someone who died and went to heaven?

I'll bet Mills has.

Wouldn't Mills have been the ideal judge for the beautiful nun contest? He could have materialised a crown. And helped the hopefuls lose a few pounds round the thighs.

Never mind the avatar - if the situation is in any way analogous to that of Danae we could be in for a real miracle in around 9 months time...

Amazing to hear the news about Todd Bentley, and even moreso to realise that he's been allegedly diddling this woman all while conducting the Biggest Thing in Evangelicalism, the Lakeland Revival in Florida. (It gives a whole new level of meaning to his favourite phrase on the Lakeland stage, "BAM! BAM! BAM!")

God give me the strength not to open and devour this large container of Haagen Dazs Chocolate Ice Cream, not to uncap and empty the smooth sweet creamy contents of that aerosol can of Reddi Whip into it, and not to pour any of that delicious thick rich dark Hershey's Chocolate Syrup all over it. Okay, what the hell, I'm an atheist and if I'm wrong, well I'm going to hell anyway, I might as well go there fat.

Marcus

You forgot about the gold sprinkles for the top of your sundae.

Joshua is a nutter. He's just mentioned praying over a houseplant - and guess what! That's right! It came back to life.

He's also recounted how he laid hands on a neighbour's dog. And guess what?!

Yep. You guessed right

Heretical- You watching too?

John,

I had to stop because Mock the Week started

petermorrow, I didn't want to tempt the fates too much, but now that you mention it, the gold is just a silly fad. If it's sprinkles, it's going to be chocolate sprinkles. Personally I prefer chopped nuts, a little fruit salad at the bottom, and some marshmallow topping too. That's the way I used to order it at Carvel. Anyone hear of Tom Carvel's college of ice cream knowledge? How about Jans on Springfield boulevard where you could order "The Kitchen Sink." There was one in Brooklyn too. Those were the days.

My god he's still going. But he is talking about weight loss

He's now asking for money. Hallelujah! He accepts all kinds of payment.

Heretical - Yes I've been watching myself. Most impressive moment last night: calling a girl called Angela out of the congregation and telling her God wanted to birth something new inside her on April 25th, then asking her what was on April 25th, and she replying "My birthday" to amazement and mad applause from the crowd. Most spectacular moment tonight: the gold dust sprinkling from the red glitter dispenser up his right sleeve, er, I mean, the gold dust falling from heaven.

I missed the dispenser but heard him talking about gold dust. Maybe they'll have it on the recorded version

Hi Heretical,

So you stopped watching, 'Mock the Weak' to go and watch 'Mock the Week'?

"He's also recounted how he laid hands on a neighbour's dog. And guess what?!"

It barked. From memory they've done the barking blessing before too.

And "he accepts all kinds of payment". Hadn't you heard, there are some christians money can't buy, for all the rest, there's 'the masters card'.

John,

You thought the glitter was spectacular? Come on...

The best bit I have seen so far is when the people are sitting with their hands on their foreheads and he says, "...hallelujah, hallelujah, ha ha, ha, ha, (!) hallelujah..."

Sort of like a collective 'doh' moment, don't you think?

Beautiful.

Sorry i missed it now. Is there a copy on you tube or anywhere?

Oliver follow Will's link to the live stream and you can watch it all again

John

What's a Bentley, and what's it doing in Florida?

GV

Is it correct that Pastor Brian (the man who said last night, "Isn't it warm in here tonight? Is the fridge working?! Bottles of water are 60p each, or 2 for a quid") really did try to raise a cadaver at the City morgue? If so, does anyone have any more details?

Heretical

"Bottles of water are 60p each, or 2 for a quid"

Did he say anything about selling whiskey?

I believe there was an offer on snake oil. All it will cost you is your intelligence and dignity

It is easy to ridicule this sort of thing - and that, I believe most emphatically, is just what we should be doing. It is, however, important to place it in context: these charlatans and their spurious miracles belong to a tradition that is as old as Christendom itself. If we laugh at these showers of gold we should laugh equally at the liquefying blood of St Gennaro. If we dismiss as nonsense the idea of an American evangelist manifesting holy oil should we not also dismiss as nonsense the idea of a Roman Catholic priest manifesting the body of Christ (as I have argued on the Dr Myers thread).

The common denominator is money and the intellectual sophistication of one does not make it any less obnoxious than the crudity of the other.

The spectacular architecture, wonderful art, and glorious, glorious music should not blind us to the fact that for twenty centuries the Roman Church used every trick in the book - and invented more - to fleece rich and poor alike.

Please, please do rubbish this obscenity but remember to spread the opprobrium around.

Portwyne, absolutely. That is in essence why I am an atheist. All religious claims are essentially in the same box, and are equally ridiculous. The resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth belongs in the same category as Joshua Mills's golden shower. Humans are credulous creatures, and will believe any old crap.

-H

I wonder if anyone independently analysed the gold dust that was produced at these meeting would they discover it was actually just glitter?

heretical- You'll be pleased to know it's been done.

for a short piece on how severeal independent analyses of the gold dust turned up not gold but "some kind of plastic film" consistent with glitter of some sort.

John, you're a saint

And what if it all were true? I have friends of mine that went there and said they could state that it was genuine.

How can you be so quick in judging? Have you not learned from history? Wasn't it an entire nation that didn't do anything against their leader in WWII (I'm German I can say that). Wasn't it the entire world being sure of the world being flat?
Just because you are many doesn't mean you are right.

At the end love will win. But those who mock others for being different do not love, so they will not be able to win.

ulichyannick

Love is stronger than death. But love doesn't use faith to turn a profit. And love depends on truth.
No one is being too quick to judge. Your friends claims don't prove much, to be honest. Many people have attended seances and found them authentic and helpful; many people have found Freudian psychotherapy authentic and helpful. They can't all be right.
Joshua Mills is claiming power that the Apostles and Prophets did not claim - and then in packaging that claim in a trite consumer friendly service.
I am a born-again Christian. I believe that miracles can happen; but I also believe people can be fooled.
And your friends have been fooled.

Graham Veale

A supernatural ? Just another TV evangelist selling hope. I can't believe people go along with this and donate to his program. People who use faith to make a profit deserve to be locked up and whipped every day for the rest of their lives. If it was good enough for the Christian martyrs it is good enough for him too!

Actually you can never be sure with that kind of stuff. Remember the boom? Sometimes, the things that seem to be too good to be actually are true :) Would love to hear from someone who has tried this weight loss program. Anybody?