³ÉÈËÂÛ̳

Exactly.

And the recording, on the 'Jesus and Justice' album, made "in an attic in Ards, 1999" is fantastic.

Get the words RJB, you'll love them, and if you can't find them, I'll post them here!

:-)

We Don't Need Religion is my absolute favourite! Finally got Brian to send a good copy to me last year for airplay stateside (I'd lost my original album, unfortunately). Talented artist and songwriter, and the most fun worship leader there is (I'll never forget the Sunday morning we brought Belmont Road traffic to a standstill with a double-capacity album launch service at CFC several years ago for Big Smile - one of the best regular Sunday services I've ever been involved with).

Pete

(Terrific post on the other thread, by the way, you continue to provide my sustenance here in the desert.)

I will get the words to the music but at the moment I am in too much pain to allow it to touch me.

The job I was about to begin, the new start, the new life, all lie in shreds tonight.

After offering me the job and me accepting, someone googled me then promptly withdrew the job offer. The hurtful thing is, what they objected to was an occasion when I had stood up for a persecuted minority, against church teaching. The job was... working for persecuted minorities.

I was actually following the gospel. (I'm a gospel (not biblical) fundamentalist - I actually believe that we are supposed to put Christ's teachings into practice.)

Anyway, its all gone.

Twenty years ago when I was first ordained, I used to run weekends for young adults (18 upwards.) We werent all that religious. Nobody was "saved in the Lord" whatever that actually means. (And please, dont anybody post a magnum opus to tell me what it does mean. I'm not really in the mood for any lectures from "proper" Christians tonight.)

We were just a group of up about 150 who looked at things like - how do I treat my parents? Do I really communicate with them? Do I give them one word replies all the time? Do I treat my house like a watering hole, in, fed, out again?

They had an amazing impact on the parish. I was getting pulled up by the parents all the time, "What have you said to my son? He's amazing, he offered to cook oor dinner last night!!"

Knowing the guy, I shudder to think what he put on the table!!

When I thought about it later, I actually had said something to that young guy. He had met me in the supermarket and I had told him that I was picking up some stuff to cook the dinner for the parish priest that night.

The penny suddenly dropped and I creased myself laughing for about the next fortnight. The young guy was just following my example. Being a christian = cooking the spuds. How beautiful was that?

Anyway, Pete, one of the offshoots of that group was that we formed a rock band. One night we were doing a benefit for Amnesty and amidst Queen, AC/DC, Led Zep, Alex Harvey, Neil Young, BTO, The Stones, The Who etc... we played this number-

[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

It was our theme tune. I havent listened to it in years. In my present circumstances, it has suddenly become very, very real..... I'm really glad that God chose not to limit himself to the Bible.

(Just had a wee smile, maybe I should be listening to the number we covered from The Who - We wont be fooled again.)

Oops, moderated again.

The number was by Eurythmics. A song called "When the day goes down."
The words are pretty pertinent to me at this moment in time.

RJB - you are a proper Christian.

RJB

Just one comment for now. In #3 you asked a number of questions; they were, I suppose, rhetorical, but here is the answer to one anyway.

Beautiful.


Oh yes, and read #5 again :-)

"If religion was a thing that money could buy,
Then the rich would live, and the poor would die..."

Are you trying to tell me people actually pay money to hear that? Nah, can't be.

I for one am glad for Catholicism. If it weren't for cathedrals, where would we hear pipe organ concerts? You put whatever you want in the plate, whatever you think it's worth, and you can hear a choir sing a whole mass. I'll bet this guy doesn't give you that option. You pay the going rate or you don't get in. I think when you get past the rhetoric, he has they same religion they do.

The Brian Houston segment was great! What was the album's name? Where and when is it available?

GV

Re: post 5

Get your Ulsterisms right -

That should be - "You are a proper Christian, like."

GV

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Interesting comments, folks - Brian Houston is excellent. It's funny how much "religion" is actually independent of any belief in god (like the spuds). Maybe atheistic Christianity isn't as rare as all that. Indeed, maybe more investigation should be put into this decoupling. If it were to turn out that there actually *wasn't* a god, would RJB still cook the spuds for his old mentor? Would we still try to get along better with our parents? Should we still try to help others? I would suggest that we would. Will - any ideas as to how the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ could conduct a survey to find out *precisely* what people in NI believe about gods etc, and whether that has any influence whatsoever on their behaviour?

RJB

I know you dont have much time for me, and i know we disagree on various subjects.

However, by the sounds of it you would have been a good fit with that job and I am sorry to hear your plans have gone up in smoke.


OT

BTW guys I emailed the sitemasters about the mass pre-moderation issue and they said the entire site had been put on this footing at the request of its owners.

I dont know what that means and wont jump to any conclusions.... watch this space...

Helio

I was always aware of something they called 'anonymous christianity' (as opposed atheist.) I understood it to be people who led good lives but who didnt have any particular religious thematization.

I also think such people were perfectly acceptable to the historical Jesus. 'Its not those who say "Lord, Lord" who shall enter the Kingdom..' I think of the centurion who was a non believer but who seemed to be a very humble man, therefore liked by Jesus.

To take this further, I also believe that those who suffer are not just acceptable to Jesus, but absolutely bound to Jesus simply on the grounds that they suffer and for no other reason. I cant see a woman in Darfur who has buried all her children, then dies herself, having to do much explaining to God.

Also, if you feed someone who is starving because you believe Jesus would want you to, you are kinda missing the point. Feed the starving because they are starving. (Then ask why they are starving. Then do whatever you can to change that state of affairs.)

Maybe loads of atheists will one day get a huge surprise and maybe loads of Christians will get a huge shock.

OT

"I know you dont have much time for me..." Aaaagh! Go on, stick the serrated knife in, pour in some vinegar and twist. Lol.

OT, if we met, we would probably get on fine. You are probably well intentioned, I just dont like some of your views. You'll notice in our 'relationship' on here I very rarely react to you angrily when you say things like (I'm just making this up here) "The world is flat" "The sun is a purple cube."

However, when you make statements which have the effect of further isolating actual human beings, especially those people who are already getting a raw deal at the hands of religion, I have reacted with anger.

I shall attempt to curb the launching of pelters at you in future.

Helio

I can't, obviously, answer for RJB, but I'll turn the question around and ask, 'would I still cook spuds for a mentor or a friend?' The answer of course is yea, probably, why not. So yes, I agree with you, and all one has to do is look around in order to observe it, doing good things is not dependent on 'belief in god' or 'belief in a particular god'. Infact I think I'd go further and say that 'doing what is good' or understanding fairness is something which is central to being human.

However, can we also go on to ask the question, why should this be? What is this deep longing for fairness, justice, seeing good done? Where does it come from, why do we act this way? To paraphrase NT Wright, what is this voice which echos in our imagination, calling to us, beckoning us, luring us to think that maybe there is such a thing as putting the world to rights?

Are there other pieces of a jig-saw to put in place? Is it possible, dare we hope that justice will really be done, or, dare I say it, will we only ever see through a glass darkly?

And will we ever cook spuds for our or another's enemy, is there room for more than justice? What do we do with the oppressor, or the 'do badder'?

And one more thing, perhaps part of the reason why 'cooking spuds', or doing any ordinary thing, seems somewhat removed from popular Christianity is because Christianity has had the life spiritualised out of it, and weirdly, there's the possibility that we have, to a degree, forgotten that the unseen God became flesh and dwelt among us. (And, as RJB has pointed out, he washed feet because they were dirty and needed washing.)

Chaps, I'm having a hard time disagreeing with you on this thread - something must change! :-) I appreciate that a lot of people feel the need to "believe" Christianity for it to work; all I am saying is that the belief aspect is unnecessary for the key "messages" of the story to have their effect. Either way, it works a bit - atheistically, I think it works *better*... Similarly for an atheistic Islam or Hinduism. I'd like to see all that.

Helio

You say belief is unnecessary - rather a tame conclusion methinks. Belief (and disbelief) are mechanisms we use to obscure category mistakes.

I do not believe in God, I do not believe in Creation, I do not believe in Intelligent Design, I do not believe in evolution, I do not believe in the City Hall, I do not believe in my mother and father.

Belief and disbelief are words we use when we attempt to speak of apprehensions from one area of brain activity in terms appropriate to another.

All I can say to those who declare God to be redundant, is that that is not my experience. Those who have a deep philosophical disagreement with me can declare that I am deluded. Fair enough. Pity me if you really must, but I am not pitying myself. You are free to think whatever you like if it meets with your philosophical requirements. I wouldn't want to disturb the peace of your neat and tidy inner world!

This idea will not convince me, however. Because I know what I have experienced, do experience, and, I am confident, will continue to experience. And this reality (not mere theory) provides the whole basis for my coping in situations that I do not believe I would be able to cope with without the reality of God in my life.

Feel free to cringe, but I am not ashamed of what I know to be true.

God was arrogantly declared to be "dead" a long time ago, but it seems he ain't going away. I wonder why....

lsv, yes it appears Lincoln was right. You really can fool some of the people all of the time.

If there is a God, I think he rejoices in all good that is said and done, regardless of whether there is a "this ones for you, God" motive behind it.

Too many Christians still see God up in the sky, or in a church. Their good acts are carried out 'for' him or 'in his name.'

Some of the most outstanding Christians I've met carry out good acts 'to' him. The starving child, the drug addicted prostitute, ARE Jesus. Suffering humanity is God's presence.

When our hearts break at the plight of such people and we genuinely reach out in love and tenderness to them, does it really matter if we are in the Catholic River Widener's Association or the Atheist Vegans League?

Guys,

Uh, yes, people are good regardless of what they believe. Some people are good in a different way than others. Some people are balls of emotion and everything good they do derives from that. Others are very dispassionate about what they believe and logical, and their good deeds derive from that. I don't think a position one way or the other on the God hypothesis actually changes that deep down.

#20 - Marcus -

...including Lincoln himself, it seems!

We don't need religion . . .

And we could do with a bit less moderation too!