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Ugh! Creepy.

The page in question has been removed already. And not a minute too soon. The most worrying thing was the amount of comments from seemingly very young people, mostly saying that "sure it's all just a bit of craic".

Shame.

Disgusting, of course, and a stark reminder of how far society still has to go. But it's also worthwhile pointing out the following:

1) That this example is isolated enough to provoke such attention is a reminder of how small the support for this kind of hatred really is.

2) 300 members of a Facebook group do not 300 participants in a hate crime make. Lots of immature morons will join because it's edgy, not because they would really participate in the kind of actions described.

3) The real outrage should be directed at the actual crimes. Although the existence of a group like this is clearly something to lament, as William has rightly highlighted, it should always be remembered that the incidents described by reading the group's postings are the real crimes rather than the speaking thereof. (In fact it seems to me that it would be easier for law enforcement to allow the group to exist, thus providing direct links to the perpetrators!)

4) That they were foolish enough to post this stuff on Facebook, linking actual hate crimes with their real identities, should tell us something important about those involved.

Welcome to the European Union. It's the tip of the iceberg. So when hatred for Protestants against Catholics and visa versa is out of fashion for the moment, attention is turned to legal Romanian migrants. It is typical of what happens all over Europe. Some union.

If two groups can't get on - Protestants and catholics - then how can multiple diversities get on.

-J

Well if the barrister's son can get away with his vandalism with a caution and declare that his window smashing behaviour wasn't racist, just coincidental...

"And I understand that the principal of one of Northern Ireland's best-known schools has begun an investigation into the involvement of his pupils in this group...."

If the messages weren't posted during School time, I'm not sure what he thinks that he can do about it.

Now this "best known school"? was it a Grammar School? And what was the ratio of Grammar to High Schools represented on that page?

Can I place a bet that there were more Grammars than High Schools? As I'll bet that High Schools are more likely to have Romanian students.

Can anyone check that bet? Are Eastern European students under-represented in Northern Ireland's elite schools?

Just a thought...

No takers on the Grammar School hypothesis?

Graham of course they're underepresented as many eastern european children of grammar school age have come to live here in the last couple of years and have to achieve schooling greatness in an elite, whilst also having to overcome the language barrier. I'm sure it will change as eastern european children in lower primary school classes reach the age for transfer testing, if they're famalies stay long term.

I wonder how important labels were to the development of the attitudes displayed on the Facebook page...

Post 9

Absolutely hilarious!
Have you seen the entrance requirements to some Grammars? a/Bipedalism. b/Ask nicely c/Pay fees.

There's a very good chance that #11 won't get past pre-mod (old school tie types are AWFULLY sensitive).

In response to 9, then, many students have startling intelligence and are in their teens when they arrive. They are rapidly picking up the language, but learning English as an academic language takes time. So are these students being neglected by the Grammars, who are supposed to pursue academic excellence, and not a good set of GCSE results. (These students may not get up to full speed until University.)

They're also meant to pursue academic excellence over a large quota of students. That doesn't stop them gobbling up Northern Irish students.
Are they as keen to gobble up the intake of Eastern European teens? If not, why not?

And were Grammars over represented on that Hate page? Was the 'best known School' a Grammar?
Was my bet on target?

GV

#11 reads like it was said in a nasty tone. It wasn't. Sorry David.

No offence taken Graham. I don't have any figures or anything but I know a family who came here a few years ago, there son was P7 and didn't speak a lick when he came. He couldn't sit the transfer test for that reason and went to an intergrated school, and is now top of his class and more fluent than most of the locals. The point I was (trying) to make, is that, despite the high intelligence as you pointed out the intitial language barrier is still an issue and may hinder entrance to grammars intially but not long term hence the underepresentation presently. In the area I live, (Tyrone) entrance to grammars was the 11+ and is now entrance exams set by the school. So: a/ no disability discrimination b/won't work and c/Tony Blair.

David

Will the entrance exams set by the school give the grammars the intake they need? It's difficult to say. Certainly not the intake that they want.
Oddly enough, the story in #14 is probably a good reason for dropping academic selection -at least academic selection on the scale that we currently use.
A little compromise on all sides would have gone a long way. I'm sure that many Grammars could have been persuaded to go Comprehensive. They're half way there already in some cases.
I'm all for parental choice in education. I don't want to see *any* type of school disappear. But the current debate on education has everyone making absurd claims.

GV

Their still lining up to get in the grammars where I live. Theres an 'educational village' on the cards though, in my town on old MOD land, and I bet that'll shake things up with maybe a junior high/6th form college scenario taking off.

Well i went to a grammar school... and i must admit that the sentiments that were on display on the facebook site are the norm rather than the minority, the influx of Roman Catholics from other countries taking jobs and houses is of course a sore point for many young people starting out in life... is that a real surprise to some of you?

I bet they keep their coal in the bath as well!

CC - I hope I'm not loading you with questions. I recognise that many of the views you have expressed in the past are totally true to the real thoughts and feelings of many protestant and unionist people in NI.

I would like to know, however, what you think about this issue, what are your own personal opinions? Here you speak of "many young people" and I suspect maybe this time you do not include yourself but perhaps I'm wrong. When you meet an immigrant what are your thoughts and what do you have to say to him or her?

Hi Parrhasios,
Hope you dont mind me interjecting here but I think that's a very interesting question you have asked CC,as it's one that I've been pondering myself!
A few months ago I listened to 2 evangelicals discussing/debating this issue. The 1st guy, whom I'd never met before, thought that immigrants were a positive thing from a Biblical view point, as he saw this as a great opportunity to evangelise them. He also said that he believed God was bringing them here for that purpose. He was very sincere about this.
The other guy, whom I did know, though not against evangelising them, felt that if you look at England, that immigration is definitely a bad
thing & began to quote Old Testament scripture concerning Israel's 'mixing' with the other nations etc etc. ps this guy is by no means a racist & would be appalled by the stuff on that Facebook page.
The two of them did not get into any social or economic questions concerning immigration!
Was wondering what some of the gang here thoughts would be on this!

Well my own personal views are somewhat mixed, before i went to work in my last job which was in a concrete factory i had thought of foreigners as job stealers and people who were taking our houses but after working in a yard were 90% of the people were Polish and one or two slovaks my attitudes changed, The foreigners were extremely hard working (mostly)and though they smoked like chimneys they were nice people and game for a laugh...they were easy to get on with and i was sickened by the way they were treated because i was 18 and had just joined the company and yet i was earning more than them (some of whom who had been there over six years), So i gained a respect for the working foreigners but in saying that i don't have much time for those who come over just to claim benefits and take up free housing... if they come over in small numbers to find work and integrate into society and actually do it then great they only add to our society but if they come over in mass numbers only to take benefits etc. then not so good, so it's a bit of a mixed picture with my views but i've tried to explain them the best i can.