When is a church a state?
Much has been written about the religious and moral implications of the Murphy Report, but little as yet has been written about the political implications of the Commission's findings. In today's Irish Times, Fintan O'Toole, a former student of Cardinal Desmond Connell, registers this telling conclusion he draws from the report: Agents of should not control Irish schools. He writes:
"The Vatican, in its refusal to deal with the Murphy commission on child abuse in the Dublin diocese, made it clear that it wishes to be regarded, not as a church organisation, but as a foreign state. Which raises the rather stark question: why do we allow a foreign state to appoint the patrons of our primary schools? If some weird vestige of colonial times decreed that the British monarch would appoint the ultimate legal controllers of almost 3,200 primary schools in our so-called republic, we would be literally up in arms. Why should we tolerate the weird vestige of an equally colonial mentality that allows a monarch in Rome to do just that?"
Read his .
Comment number 1.
At 8th Dec 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:When is a Church a State? When it's a state of bedlam.
If the Vatican is a state, then perhaps it is time for Ireland to declare war. I know Ireland doesn't have the strongest military in the world but the Vatican has none except for a small number of Swiss Montaignard guards. I think they could be easily overcome. What would the Irish government demand when it is victorious? Repairations. There must be billions worth of stolen loot the Church acquired over the centuries that could be sold off to make meaningful compensation for its victims. I'd say the Irish should act quickly though before another country makes the same discovery and beats Ireland to the punch.
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Comment number 2.
At 8th Dec 2009, mccamleyc wrote:Bishops are not agents of a foreign state. It's not really that hard to understand unless you are a protestant bigot and have been pumping out the same anti-catholic bilge for a few hundred years.
OToole pretends that the State somehow set up three thousand schools and then for some obscure reason handed them over to bishops. The reality is they were set up by the Catholic Church and grant aided by the State on the basis that they provide a service to to Irish tax payers - in the same way that farmers are grant aided for providing food. They are not State schools run by the Church, but Church schools supported by the State. If Fintan wants other schools all he has to do is set them up and apply for aid.
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Comment number 3.
At 9th Dec 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:"Bishops are not agents of a foreign state."
The Catholic Church does seem to have some of the trappings of a state. Can you think of another religion that is comparable in so many respects?
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Comment number 4.
At 9th Dec 2009, mccamleyc wrote:You are confusing the Holy See with the Catholic Church. They are not one and the same. Go look it up in wikepedia. While you're there look up "propensity" and "evidence"
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Comment number 5.
At 9th Dec 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:"You are confusing the Holy See with the Catholic Church."
Seems more like a "See of confusion and obfuscation" to me. Creating subsidiaries and other structures such as what we call LLCs or Limited Liability Corporations to limit exposure to liability and its consequences is an old trick. Whether it works in criminal or even civil law in a specific instance often depends on the specific laws and how they are applied but in the court of public opinion, it usually won't work at all.
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Comment number 6.
At 15th Dec 2009, ChristianCalvinist wrote:The RCC is a state and church at the same time...that makes me a bigot right? It would seem that the RCC chnages is trying to get itself out of blame's way by attempting to change its spots.
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