成人论坛

Christians (and most other religious groups) have always had a persecution complex. They thrive on telling each other what an embattled put-upon minority they are, when in truth of course they're anything but.

This case, along with all the others over the past few years have been nothing but propoganda offensives by the Christian Legal Centre, as any half decent journalist (without an agenda) would know.

Or is it that some daft people should Get A Life instead of whinging all the time? Can you see Jesus getting worked up over this? If someone is going to discriminate against me, please do it properly. Don't merely order me to stop wearing my Viking horned helmet to clinic. I need REAL victimisation!

Do you not think it would be an insult to those who have, and indeed still are facing strong persecution in our World for their religious beliefs, whether Christian or otherwise?
Even thinking of recent violence in Jos, Nigeria where many people lost their lives etc would pale an argument about jewelry well into insignificance.

The eraly Church, when being fed to lions etc didn't have MPs or radio chat shows to ring into, neither did they blog or protest about the cruelty imposed on them. They had no rights given them by the government of the day.

I understand we live in a different age, one that claims tolerance etc, but still; surely our faith is not defined by images of crosses or crucifictions etc, but by the Spirit of Christ at work in our lives through the Word of God.

Perhaps we as Christians could do with stepping back from smaller issues and look to where Jesus would have us concentrate; He'd probably just repeat the great commission, to go into all the world and make disciples.

Just some randomly strung together thoughts

Daniel took a stand, John Bunyan took a stand, the Puritans took a stand, the Tolpuddle Martyrs took a stand, and it's now time for Christians in the UK to make a stand against the anti Christian attitude that has infected our society in Britain today, and which has marginalised Christianity. British political correctness has gone mad against anything that is classed Christian.

Evangelical Christians in Britain today can鈥檛 breathe or their faith and culture and heritage comes under attack from the liberals and the humanists that have polluted our society, government, business and the media with their anti-Christian agendas.

For instance it鈥檚 OK to wear a hijab in the NHS, but to wear a Christian cross is a crime and to wear one workers are under threat of losing their employment, and the NHS puts it down to health and safety, I鈥檝e never heard a bigger load of bunkum in the whole time that I have worked in the NHS, and I have worked in the NHS for nearly 35 years. There is more risk attached to wearing a hijab in the NHS than there is to wearing a cross, and there鈥檚 the added risk of carrying infections by wearing a hijab. The hijab has become to the Muslims in Britain today what the Irish language has become to Irish republicans, a political weapon to use against our culture and heritage, and sadly Britain has surrendered, Britain now has the backbone of a jellyfish.

All Christians in the NHS must take a stand as a group because a group is now defined as more than two. All Christians should wear a cross whether it be a necklace or in some other form.

The NHS trust in one particular case kept moving the goal posts of their argument every time their contentions were being defeated so they drew up new arguments every time that their petty anti Christian opinions were defeated .

Health care in Britain that once had a Christian ethos which can be traced to Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ healing the sick is now being slowly eroded from health care and from British society in general.

The Christian ethos that once permeated life of Britain is now being treated as an alien part of our society and culture, and which is now being treated as surplus to British life. In days gone by it was this Christian ethos that saved Britain from revolution and from being defeated by its enemies in time of war.

Christians should let their voice be heard by writing to their MPs and newspapers and wherever they can get their voice heard. I for one will be wearing my cross daily as an emblem and witness of my faith in the NHS hospital where I work.

I would invite Christians of all denominations who subscribe to the historic Christian faith to sign the Declaration of Christian Conscience.

Horrific stuff. They will start building the concentration camps soon and Richard Dawkins will lead his armed thugs in a rampage through Canterbury.
Seriously,my wife is a nurse and she has had her uniform ripped when patients have grabbed her in the past. This lady was told she could wear her necklace/crucifix tucked into her uniform where patients could not grab it but that did not satisfy her martyrdom complex.I am not impressed.

flibby,

"Christians (and most other religious groups) have always had a persecution complex. They thrive on telling each other what an embattled put-upon minority they are"

Indeed. Guess what form of persecution the websites on the three urls below are about, political, racial, religious, or something else?

(moderator, they are relevant, please do not remove)





You guessed correct, religious of course. And guess of which religion the people were, who got around first to claiming those urls. Again you guessed correct, christianity.

It is interesting to read from the various blogs the regular negative comments from the same people in response to Christianity. I often feel that there is a lack of understanding of what 'true' Biblical Christianity is or there is some underlying bitterness hidden away.

The Bible does state that Christians will face persecution if they are prepared to stand up for their faith. It's just a shame that there aren't a few more like Shirley!

This is tricky party because she obviously feels persecuted, but when we end up discussing jewellery...

Brian and Hippy, here鈥檚 the bit which bothers me, if wearing a cross, or carrying a bible, or saying grace in the staffroom was important and if I was being told that if I did any of these things I鈥檇 loose my job then perhaps we *might* be talking about persecution but maybe we need to grapple with the fact that the good news we preach is better than that kind of good news.

If they take your necklace... give them your fish badge too...

And Christian Hippy can I suggest that when Daniel prayed, he wasn't 'taking a stand', he was talking to his friend.

Let me guess Brian. "True" christianity just happens to be the flavour that you subscribe to, and every one of the countless other different flavours is wrong?

Everyone wants to be on TV.

Faith is more than wearing symbols. It is about orthopraxy. The Early Church used symbols like the chi-rho when facing persecution. I did a spotcheck in the jewellery department of a leading store on the mainland on Monday and could'nt find one necklace with a cross. Should I read into that? Is this issue an indication of bigger things to come? I think people do have to take a stand when they feel wrong is being done. But as the 成人论坛 programme on Sunday identified, some of these issues are emerging from a human rights culture. I have heard of pupils who have orchestrated an online group petitioning for assembly to be banned on the basis that it is Christian focussed. On the other hand If a school was to rotate between religions there would be a hue and cry. I mean an assembly covering Eid Al Fitr or Hanukkah.
Also, are we really living in a Christian country? declining Church attendance?

Brian T was really lucky to have been born at just the right place and time or he could have ended up with one of those invented gods.
Surely that fact alone is more than enough proof for any reasonable person that he's with the right god?

Flibbly

To answer your question..Yes it is and countless others agree with me.
There are those who read the Bible and look between the lines rather than speed read it.... they are the ones pointing the finger.

Peter...I can understand your point...but I suppose it's just another occasion for those anti Christian protesters to stand up and tell us to shut up because they want us marginalised....Whatever happened to that chorus..stand up, stand up for Jesus...Ye soldiers of the cross.

May be shirley should do a different slant for her appeal and bring in more risk assessments. (Dont u just luv them!!)
I think she should do them for neglect on the grounds that they did not do a secondary risk assessment on the outcome of the primary risk assessment.
If a secondary risk assessment showed that an employees religious, ethical or cultural rights were infringed by the outcome of the primary risk assessment then it should be the companys responsibility to look for a compromise.
I.e. You cant wear a cross round your neck but you can wear a small attached pin. You cannot wear a niquab but can wear a transparent veil, you cant wear your viking horns in the operation room but you can wear them in the communal areas....

Much as I despise the views of those wearily predictable anti-religionistas, who salivate at every opportunity to attack the Christian faith, I have to say, in this particular instance, I happen to have zero sympathy with Mrs Chaplin.

Unless the Times is spinning a yarn, this is what I read the other day in said newspaper: "The hospital came up with a series of compromises after Mrs Chaplin's case was taken up by the Christian Legal Centre. Managers suggested that she pin it to her uniform or wear it on her identity lanyard."

Now let me just repeat one phrase from this quotation just to make sure there is nothing amiss with my eyesight and the empirical evidence of my sense perception really does connect with objective reality: "...Managers suggested that she PIN IT TO HER UNIFORM..." (apologies for shouting). Now, let's apply a little bit of logic to this. Errrmmm... (scratch head and gaze misty eyed into the middle distance) ... Wot duz dat mean, I wonders????

Answer: it means that the hospital had NO problem with her crucifix, the interpretation thereof being: they had NO problem with her desire to tell the world that she had something to do with Christianity. And the implication thereof: they were NOT persecuting Mrs Chaplin.

Unless there is some requirement for a Christian to have a chain round his or her neck, then I fail to see what Mrs Chaplin's problem was. And if this really is a requirement, then obviously I must be an apostate since I have been going "chain-free" ever since I started subscribing to the Christian faith (or is this really a cunning conspiracy by the manufacturers of Christian necklaces? .... Ah, yes, that must be what's going on. It's all clear to me now!!)

Some of you may think is some great stand for the faith. I call it sheer bloody-mindedness over something that is completely irrelevant, and the sooner the Church gets its "persecution priorities" right the better.

PS - has anyone noticed the great irony in this case? The crucifix is, of course, a symbol of the suffering of Jesus on the cross. Who did Jesus pray for while in agony nailed to the cross? What did he pray? What are the implications of that concerning persecution? ... Food for thought, eh?

#4 - The Christian Hippy -

"The hijab has become to the Muslims in Britain today what the Irish language has become to Irish republicans, a political weapon to use against our culture and heritage, and sadly Britain has surrendered, Britain now has the backbone of a jellyfish."

Have you got something against the Irish language? A culture (within the island of Ireland) which truly feels threatened by the indigenous language of that same land, obviously can't have much going for it, in my opinion. It's a bit like saying that the anglo-Welsh are feeling pressured and constricted by the use of the Welsh language. How ridiculous.

As an Englishman (who also happens to be Irish) I say: good. Let the days of suppressing indigenous languages be a thing of the past. If that is having the backbone of a jellyfish, then so be it. Long live squidgy marine life.

Brian

I actually think that this is an important issue for the church and I think that there is very clear guidance on how we who call ourselves Christians are supposed to react, the first of which is that extending grace is more important than demanding our rights.

There have been two threads recently, this one and, 鈥楴o Room at the Inn鈥�, which have raised the issue of Christians and competing rights. Now here鈥檚 the thing, which speaks more of Christianity?

鈥楴o you can鈥檛 stay the night in my guesthouse, I have the right not to offer you a room鈥�, and, 鈥業 have the right to wear the symbol of my religion and I have a right to make an issue of it,鈥�

or,

鈥楽ure, you鈥檙e welcome, I don鈥檛 feel any need to tell you I disagree with you and I鈥檓 going to cook you the best breakfast I鈥檝e ever cooked. You will leave here saying, I have never been received more graciously or more hospitably.鈥� and 鈥楴ecklace? What necklace? I will be the best nurse I can possibly be. I will do my duty, and more. If, you鈥檙e stuck for someone to fill in on a shift, I鈥檒l do it, if you need an extra pair of hands, here鈥檚 mine.

What kind of Christians does our society really need?

Chippy, would it change your viewpoint if you knew that Mrs Chaplin (no relation of Charlie, I'm sure) is a devout Roman Catholic? Just asking.

As for the Irish language, yes, it has been used as a political football by many - it's time for greater awareness and usage to be extended across the entire community. My Roman Catholic and Presbyterian ancestors used that language and named many of our towns and geographical features, as well as adding countless snippets to the English language. It's part of my heritage as an atheist too. No matter what Parrhaisos thinks (and there he goes using a name in *Greek*!).

Peter, you have pretty much hit this nail on the head. I think Jesus would enjoy this blog, and many "Christians" who post here would be very surprised by some of his viewpoints (they should perhaps read the bible, which might help, as well as the work of Khalil Gibran, which outlines some of the challenges and misconceptions that face a prophet. And they should watch The Life of Brian. EVERYONE should watch The Life of Brian - perhaps the best religious movie of all time (sure beats that rubbish Mel Gibson effort).

Hippy Christian - not that I think u are saying that u dislike the irish language - but I would luv to know it & welsh.

I read a story (do not know if its true or not but u could google it)- about the miliseans settling in ireland. Apparently, this may not be totally right, but when they were building the tower of babel one of the miliseans came to Egypt and invented a language that all the builders of different races could understand. He married the pharoahs daughter. But he gave Moses and Aaron camp for the night and had to flee egypt when the pharoah got upset. Anyhows they ended up settling in Wales & Ireland.

So the gaelic language might have some of the tower of babel language incorporated into it!!!

And I heard this on a bbc documentary about the aran islands. Apparently it is the only language that no matter what u r - even an atheist, the word for hello is "God be with u"!!

Too weird !!

Wedwabbit, I wouldn't give too much credence to any story linking Moses, the Egyptians, the Milesians and the Tower of Babel. Even if the story of Moses is not a complete myth, he appeared when Egyptian civilisation had been in impressive swing for centuries, and the pyramids would have been over a millennium old. Suffice it to say there is not a shred of archaeological or historical evidence for Moses even having existed, although I think it is likely that an Egyptian tale was co-opted by the Canaanite tribes that later cast themselves as Israelites. Moses is a perfectly good Egyptian name, as is Miriam (Meret-Amun). The irony of course is that Mary is the same as Maryam, which is derived from Meret-Amun - "beloved of Amun" (despite the later Hebrew ad hoc etymology). Jesus's mother is beloved of Amun!

It is also interesting to note that there was more time passed between the pyramids and Cleopatra than it has been between Cleopatra and US. This gives some idea of the enormous span of Ancient Egyptian history. The tower of Babel ("Gate of God") was a Zigurrat, and substantially *smaller* than the Great Pyramid at Giza, which remained the tallest building on Earth until the building of the Eiffel Tower. It is still the most massive stone building ever constructed. And, of course, it pre-dates Ussher's date for the Noachian flood, but nobody believes in the Noachian flood these days.

Just some randomly strung together thoughts

Gary: are you the same Gary Boal that works for the revival movement (i.e. formerly Everyhome Crusade) ? Just wondering.

So, what is really at issue in this case? Is this what religious persecution looks like in 21st century Britain? Is it merely "wooden-headed bureaucratic silliness", as Rowan Williams claims? Or is it an over-egged public debate which could now encourage a persecution complex on the part of some Christians?

I think the issue is health and safety facism, rather than Christian persecution Will.

I worked closely with Health and Safety (I'm qualified to NEBOSH certificate level) in my last job and I can tell you that much of the legislation is both essential and necessary for the prevention of accidents at work. Things such as the COSHH or asbestos regulations have improved the working environment for all employees. Pre the Health and safety at work act, the workplace was a far more dangerous place than it is now.

However, when you hear of silly stories such as this, it makes a mockery of the whole thing. It degrades all the work done by people such as Allan St. John Holt:

[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

I'm sure he never intended health and safety legislation to be as pedantic and beaurocratic as this.

peter & brian -
love the comments. I think we should get some more direction on this too!!
What about a grace workshop for Joe Bloggs ??
When, where & how to 2 be in full grace - i'm guessing this is quite a lucid state and would probably be when u r in a quiet place with yourself or people with similar nature
When, where & how 2 be in balanced grace - you've suppressed you negative emotions, you re-act to people positively, you r in tune with your surroundings and are aware of the christos in everyone, you r happy. You are capable of making rational decisions that may be confrontational without creating negative emotions in you or others. I call it "christmas everyday" - i am guessing this is the state we r meant to spend most of our time in.
When, where & how to be in assertively protect your Grace: how to work out what is actually annoying you, how to work out if u r being unreasonable, how to know when to drop it even if you r right and how to make a win / win scenario if you decide to assert yourself.
When were & how to get into negative grace - you've give in to the dark side, are consumed with anger or unsettled,...and how to get out of it quickly!!!(Though obviously there will be times we will be here not though our own choice like grief, or when in physical or mental illness when we need to have more compassion for ourselves ..)

And I'm sure there are more states someone should give us direction on in an adult way, not the way we were taught when we were kids. I dont know the non christian / non religous terms for these states but thet are just emotions we all have.

Helio""
i know we cant prove alot of things because theres no evidence but i do find the ancient stories fascinating. Just as well we still have the pyramids or we would be thinking that they were just made up too!!
I dont think a wandering people would build structures that were meant to last. And if they did exist i'm sure they were good at recycling their waste and brought alot of it with them. But i dont know i am just guessing.
I did watch a documentary on the history chanel that stopped short of saying the words that moses was Akhenaten. I do like the merit-amum story. One of my favourite pictures is the madonna of the roses - just for the fact her eye make up looks very egyptian and it reminds me of the blending of the Isis (may & roses) and Mary stories.
When I visited Italy I was actually quite surprised to see so many ancient Egyptian things in Rome. I am not quite sure but I think the tradition of greeting the rising sun on the steps of san giovanni de laterano ended in the 1950s. Which is a shame because it must have been beautiful.
I didnt know the time lapses beween the pyramids and Cleopatra was so big!! The ancient brat pack - Cleopatra, Caesar, Mark Antony,Herod - i didn't know until recently that some of Cleopatras children survived - they might even have descendants alive today!! - "helios King of kings" - magna media and his twin sister Selena. Maybe Dan Brown could write another book on this for us!!
I would love to know as well how old the pyramids are. It has that sort of glimpse of time that the last episode of Battlestar Galactica touches on. (i have heard it say that the writer purposely tried to set the story of the Old Testament in a new surrounding - "battlestar Galactica" and then he mixed it with some other ancient traditions - the theme song is ancient sanskrit")

WW, we know a fair bit of the archaeology of the ancient Near East, and specifically if Canaan had been invaded to the extent alluded to in Joshua, we'd know about it. Many tells in Israel have destruction layers, but they date to different times from a supposed exodus; the Israelite archaeological relics are firmly rooted in *Canaanite* contexts, i.e. Israel emerged *in situ* from a Canaanite base.

The Great Pyramid at Giza dates from approximately 2500 BCE, during the Egyptian Old Kingdom. There was a brief "controversy" a while back about the age of the Sphinx being a lot older than ~2500 years (Khafre, who had the Sphinx carved was the son of Khufu, and their pyramids are the two biggest ones at Giza), but that is generally regarded as utter nonsense. It was based on supposed anomalous weathering patterns, but was really a rather shoddy piece of reasoning. We actually know rather a lot about the Pyramids - they most certainly were not (as some people used to think) built by Israelite slaves, but by free workers in a corvee system, centuries before even Abraham was hypothesised to have existed (and I don't think many people regard Abraham as a real character any more).

But my sister is not called Selena ;-)

why does she need to wear an idol around her neck anyways? its nothing but pride...oooh look at me i'm a christian because i wear a cross... it's not the outward appearance that matters...

The Great Pyramid at Giza dates from approximately 2500 BCE, during the Egyptian Old Kingdom.

I'll bet they didn't get bogged down with COSHH regulations Helio !

Peter, no - H&S were not really on the agenda, although the workers were paid, fed, accommodated, and those who died were accorded quite generous funeral packages (which was important for Egyptians).

Peter, yes,
but my views expressed here should in no way reflect EHC.

[have we met?]

have we met?]

No Gary.

However, I do read your blog from time to time, largely because I'm acquainted with some of the staff at EHC.

I know Clive, Heather (now Mercer), and Paul Allen, both through tennis circles and church . My brother and his wife are still very friendly with Heather and Norman.

I knew Paul fairly well at one stage but haven't seen him for quite some time. I see Norman now and again (worked with him for a while in when I was in the NIE). I'm sure you know exactly who I'm talking about !

It's a small world especially in NI Gary.

Small world indeed Peter.
Yep i know who all you're talkin about

Only 2 or 3% of the population in Eire speak Gaelic and it is sad when people jump on the bandwangon in the North to fight for so-called equality for non-Gaelic speakers, just because they want to be more Irish than the irish, while most of the population in Eire have NO use for the Gaelic Language at all in this modern world.

POST #15
鈥淗ave you got something against the Irish language?鈥�
Just to let you know 鈥揕SV- my daughter and wife were in the heart of heart West Belfast last night to attend an Irish language awards event where my daughter was awarded her Silver Fianne certificate and badge! In a social club where the only language that is spoken is Irish, with interpretation if it is needed, nothing against the Irish language just the hijacking of it to be used as a political baseball bat by one side of the community against the other, when it should be for the whole community, especially as the revival of the Irish language has its roots in Irish Presbyterianism.

I like individuals to reveal they hold stronge beliefs..... it acts as a warning.

Tell me please, what use has the Irish Language for working class prods who usually take their holidays mostly in Spain rather than the west coast of Ireland.

I really think its time to stop all this silly fuss about the Irish Language and get on teaching the Kids English, which is more needful and
also to say that the Irish Language is for all, not so, especially when most of the people in Ireland don't want to learn it.

I have to agree Oliver - the Irish language is essentially a dead language surviving only by dint of expensive artificial respiration. Dead things should be buried - if they aren't they start to smell...