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I think the 1st Human Rights is the right of the Loyal Orders 2 march peacefully and without fear of attack. Everybody else seems to be able to parade in peace. The Parades Commission should definitely go as it is denying the Loyal Orders their rights

Isn't it strange that a certain constituency of people demand their rights to provoke others in their society with culturally triumphalistic events (such as sectarian marches through sensitive neighbourhoods), while at the same time claiming to revere the Bible? And the Bible they revere states the following:

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (Philippians 2:5-8)

"Carrying your cross" involves a willingness to give up your rights for the sake of others, as Christ did.

"Proving a point" culturally seems to be more important to certain so called "Christians" than honouring God.

Sad, but true.

I don't like 2 see the Gay Parade going through Belfast but it's their right to do so. I don't agree with it, but I have 2 accept it. It seems that anybody else other than the loyal orders can parade. Logica_sine_ vinitate, would you see East Belfast , Ballymacarret No6 District Orangemen marching into Belfast City Centre as going through a sensative area? There seems 2 be 1 law for Protestants and 1 law 4 Roman Catholics.

I think this guy's a puppet. There are literally thousands of Orange parades every year.

As for the new blog - not exactly they broadest of representatives among their commentators. And as with most lefty blogs their comment policy precludes comments that racist, sexist or homophobic - as usual you can say what you like about religion and no one can be offended.

mccamleyc,

race, sex and sexuality are immutable characteristics of a person - religion on the other hand is a theological construct (of which there are many competing varieties).

race, sex and sexuality are protected (along with with ethnicity, disability and gender identity) - religion is not. The right to believe in a religion is protected but not the content or values of any particular religion (same as politics).

Perhaps that explains the different approach.

So yes - people can say whatever they like about religion and argue about the veracity and validity of religious morals, values and beliefs (as long as it does not denigrate their right to believe) but not denigrate the religious for having those beliefs.

Tullycarnetbertie (@ 3) -

I don't like 2 see the Gay Parade going through Belfast but it's their right to do so. I don't agree with it, but I have 2 accept it. It seems that anybody else other than the loyal orders can parade.

I'm not sure that this is a fair comparison.

Whatever one may think about homosexuality, it has to be admitted that the Gay Parade is not a campaign against heterosexuality. I am not aware that being gay implies damning those who are not. This is a parade that seeks to promote tolerance between people who are different from a sexual orientation point of view. Are gays trying to "convert" heterosexuals to homosexuality? Surely that is not the case. Are gay people claiming that heterosexuality is a kind of "heresy"? Of course not. Isn't the whole point of this parade an attempt on the part of certain people to gain acceptance within the community? And there is no historical and political baggage associated with this. There is no traumatic historical event such as "The Troubles" - with an appalling loss of life - that such a parade is associated with.

Can one really say that homosexuality is sectarian?

Now can the same reasoning really be applied to the Orange Parades?

Here is some wording from : "we reject Romanism, Ritualism, Sacramentalism, Unitarianism and Ecumenism. Ecumenical contact with the Church of Rome is contrary to the Word of God, subversive to the Gospel of Free Grace and detrimental to the well being of the state."

If I were a Catholic and such an organisation paraded down my street, knowing they believe that my convictions were "detrimental to the well being of the state", would I not feel totally threatened? And yet, as a heterosexual, would I feel threatened if a Gay Parade came down my street? How could I, given that being gay does not involve being "anti-straight"!

Therefore I think your reasoning is unsound.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

When Ballymacarret No 6 District is marching into the City Centre, THEY ARE NOT GOING THROUGH A ROMAN CATHOLIC AREA? Can anyone not understand that? I was born and bred of the Newtownards Road so I know that area inside out. I live up in Tullycarnet but my heart will always be on the Newtownards Road and it's history so please don't insult my intelligence and try and rewrite history as many people would do claiming that Ballymacarret District marching into the City Centre is a provocotive parade when once again let me say IT DOES NOT GO THROUGH A ROMAN CATHOLIC AREA? Have you all got it?

Tullycarnetbertie

I am not familiar with the area, but I do not think that the Parades Commission would take a decision without having good grounds. Perhaps the parade passes very close to a Roman Catholic area? Is there no way a slight change could be made in the route walked that would accommodate the Commission? I am no supporter of Orange Order parades but if decisions to ban them are being made arbitrarily it is a concern.

Tullycarnetbertie,

This all seems quite complicated and frustrating for you. Perhaps you should take it up with the Parades Commission. In my experience they are a nice bunch and very accommodating to reasonable folk.

Tullycarnetbertie (@ 9) -

Let me just say that I was making a general point as an outsider. I don't even live in NI, but in England. But perhaps that gives me an advantage, as I am looking at this situation with a certain degree of objectivity, and perhaps good old English pragmatism (and, dare I use the word, "compromise" - for the good of the community).

I was suggesting to you that a Gay Parade is essentially different from an Orange Parade, in that the latter is associated with sectarianism, and with an ideological rejection of the belief system of the opposing community. Now I assume (and correct me if I am wrong) that Belfast City Centre would be neither a Catholic nor a Protestant area. If this is the case, then the fact that it is not exclusively Protestant would mean that there are Catholics there, who would have to cope with a parade of an organisation, which regards their religious beliefs as "detrimental to the well being" of their society.

A Gay Parade might indeed offend some people, because they believe that homosexuality is wrong, but that is rather different from that parade representing a direct psychological attack on who they are as people (namely, as heterosexuals). In other words, the "offence" of a Gay Parade is the cost of living in a society of freedom of speech; but the "offence" of a sectarian parade is not only the cost of freedom of speech, but it is also the unacceptable feeling of threat suffered by those of the other community, who have to endure a direct challenge to their legitimacy (both religious and political).

Certainly if a parade came down my road, and right past my house, and it was an organisation whose fundamental beliefs were, for example, that "all Christians were detrimental to society" (and there was a lot of historical and political baggage involved), I think I would feel extremely threatened and angry that I had to put up with this kind of affrontery in my own country. However, if a parade came down my street organised by, say, the local Buddhists who were not out to "get" Christians, I think I would just say "live and let live". I am not a Buddhist, nor do I agree with Buddhist thinking, but I accept that there is freedom of speech. However, such a group does not represent a direct threat to who I am and my legitimate position within society.

Can you see the distinction?

very funny mods - those same defamatory remarks about Pope Benedict have been made countless times on this site.

Tullycarnetbertie,

There are two issues I have with your posts on this topic

1) you state that there is one rule for protestant marches and another rule for Roman catholic marches. To illustrate your point you compare your pet grievance with a Pride march. Pride is a cross community event taking place solely within the commercial centre of Belfast, your is from Newtownards Road into the city centre through and past residential areas. Why did you not pick a Roman catholic march to compare it to if your beef is sectarianism on the part of the Parades Commission?

2) you shout that you do not go THROUGH a Roman catholic area. That's what's known as being economical with the truth. Your march passes by two sides of the Roman catholic Short Strand (one side on the inward and the other on the outward) which as we all know is a major flashpoint at the best of times. The other two sides of that area are bounded by the Lagan and the rest of protestant East Belfast. Your march was told to only play hymns going past that area instead of the usual sectarian nonsense and theses restrictions are in place because the bands you employ can't be trusted not to play agonistically.

I agree with LSV's analysis and think it is only fair that your are straight (if you pardon the pun) in sharing all the information necessary for people to form an opinion as to whether you are just crying because you can't coat trail through or past an area where you are not wanted singing the sash or not.

Another question, as you seem to be an apologist for the Loyal Orders in this area - Why do we have to put up with UVF flags all over the place? It's like dogs marking their territory. They are still up and if terrorists think that they can intimidate people by flying flags then they are sadly mistaken, it's your Loyal Orders season so get them taken down.

How do you expect to earn any respect from people when you behave like you do, trampling over your own community and the neighbouring one.

Dave you raise some intersting points. At the end of the day this parade DOESN'T GO THROUGH A ROMAN CATHOLIC AREA. I do accept that in the past bands have played offensive tunes, however bands have cleaned up their act and behave in a responsible manner. If you lok at the violence now at parades, it not the Orangemen or bands who are rioting, it's the so called protesters (many of who don't live in the area). What you fail to forget (or conveniently overlook) there are houses facing the Chapel which are inhabited by Protestants, St Martin's Church Of Ireland church is their, Westbourne Presbyteran Church is there. The people on the Newtownards Road want this parade. Let me repeat this THERE ARE NO ROMAN CATHOLIC HOUSES ON THE NEWTTOWNARDS ROAD. Can you not understand plain English? I know I am a bigot but to be honest with you I don't give a toss of what you or anybody thinks of me. I make no apology for defending the Loyal Orders. The Shinners make no apology of bein Republicans/ Nationalists/ Catholics, why shouldn't I be the same? By the way I can remember a Junior Orange parade being attacked by a crowd from Short Strand. This was blatantly child abuse yet nothing happened to the culprits. I repeat my charge there is 1 law 4 Orange Parades and another law 4 other parades.

At last, something that all the communities of Northern Ireland can agree on - Protestants should not apologise for being Roman Catholics. And vice-versa!

I'll go away now.

Tullycarnetbertie (@15) -

I know I am a bigot but to be honest with you I don't give a toss of what you or anybody thinks of me.

I must say that you've just brightened up my day by saying that (and I am not being sarcastic).

The fact that you say that you are a bigot probably means that, at heart, you are nothing of the sort. The real bigots are those who'll never admit it.

I almost feel bad at having argued with you.

All the best. Al

I'm not a fan of street parades- a better location for a relaxing, enjoyable event would be a park. The Orange Order should be allowed to express its culture in a less confrontational way & environment- perhaps as part of a week of festivities encompassing tourist attractions such as the Ulster American Folk Park, the Ulster Folk & Transport Museum & European Pipe Band Championships.
Maybe each district could compete against each other musically with an independent jury selecting a winning district- the prize, attendence at an international Golf tournament for example. There could be traditional folk music & poetry in Ulster-Scots as well as theatre/plays & traditional Ulster foods.
Maybe I'm too naive, but perhaps positive leadership could help rehabilitate the image of the Order as well as prevent a Protestant working class feeling side-lined. There could be ways to make the event more inclusive to other members of society & tourists, instead of the current situation where many people in Belfast, including Protestants, head out of Belfast because of July 12th. As long as the Orange Order is associated in people's minds with confrontation, antagonism & violence it's going to feel frustrated.
Speakin to a friend online about this topic, he said-

It's a nice idea, but I think going out for a march is probably the real reason most of them do it
like most political 'culture' it's just their way of having something to do, and having something to get all uppity and affronted about is ambrosia to that type of person
your idea is simply too sensible to work ;)
I'm protestant by my upbringing but have very much cast it away
my granda was an orangeman
but despite that was a very nice man lol

From what he says it also antagonises elements on the 'other side', making them louder, when nobody wants to hear that either

Tullycarnetbeattie,

The rules of the Parades commission specify what can or cannot be done passing a church (of whatever denomination), the fact that there are houses opposite is irrelevant. The only way round it is to engage with the people who run the church, you may not get anywhere but at least you will get credit for trying (as long as you actually try and don't just go through the motions).

You say there are no catholic homes on the Newtownards Road, so are you saying the parade does not pass Short Strand (Bridge End) where the people can see and hear you. That is the parade you mentioned in your earlier post (not just one on the Newtownards Road).

I am not defending the behaviour of the protesters, it is every bit as bad as some of the antics of the OO and it's followers and bands in the past. It's a bit difficult for you to attain the moral high ground from such a low starting point. Maybe if you abided by the Parades commission rules then the spotlight would fall on the protesters and their justifications for protest.

Can you address the UVF flags we have to put up with, why are they there and why have they not been removed. My feeling is that they are for triumphalism and intimidation - they do the cause of the OO no end of harm.