On a previous thread
Jonnie (who it turns out knows Editor Amanda from a previous life) took up the suggestion of having a place for people to critique the programme. Here was his thought:
"I think - from now on , along with the 'Beach' and the 'Furrowed brow' we should have the 'de-brief' thread! perhaps we should just call it 'glassbox'
Eddie et al, could simply open up the blog and all would be there on a plate.
Not such a bad idea really?
As an experiment, tomorrow I will create a new page on the extra site called 'glassbox' or we can change it to whatever.
If it sits better on the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ site as another thread all well and good.
AND! It's March so we were told we will be able to have all these new features :-)"
And indeed the experiment looks like fun. Should we have a Glass Box here? What form should it take? And will we get told off for starting one?!
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Eddie: I think it's a good idea to have a glasshouse (okay, glassbox) if it's helpful to the programme, and where ideas can grow.
Strangely, though, I imagine that one of the outcomes that was anticipated from introducing a Blog was that we would feedback on the programme. However - as we all now know ;o) - it didn't quite turn out like that .........
Now, then, Eddie, about that lovely photo I sent you. Not even an acknowlegement. And that was my favourite picture of him! And you didn't like it .......
Oohh Eddie, Eddie, Eddie, Ready Freddie.
Given that the frog is primarily designed to increase communication between The Overseeing Lord and his minions, I can only imagine that a thread dedicated to the show itself would be welcomed, provided that everyone is sensible, the thoughts are genuine and not agenda-driven (Segment about potatoes: "It's Israel's fault!") and trolls are kept at bay with a light-sabre.
It would be good if we could comment on the Blog, too, Eddie.
Will today be 'one of those days'?
Toughened glass, I think.
Yes, why not? It could be good for everyone.
Jonnie is right on the money, as always. It seems like a good idea to me. O.K. there's 'Feedback' and other methods of letting the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ have your thoughts about various aspects of programming. But they are dominated by people carping about this topic, that programme or the other something. Very little that's good ever gets reported. And they have to spread themselves thinly because of the huge amount of programming that the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ puts out.
If the PM crew are genuinely responsive to their listeners comments about the broadcast programme and want direct feedback then it must be a good thing.
BigSis' breakdown of the Wednesday programme on another thread was a model for this kind of critique; direct, incisive, critical, non-abusive & fair. This is the kind of thing you should be asking for and getting.
You can't please all the people all the time. Fact.
There are times when I shout at my radio in the car, because something has provoked me to anger. It might be a comment from an interviewee, or perhaps I feel that Eddie has missed a glaring hole in the interviewee's arguments and wish he'd exploited it. In fairness it tends to be the former.
Equally there are times when I chuckle over one of the more whimsical, and perhaps less strictly 'news' items.
I like the balance in the show, the blend of hard and soft items, plus the projection of Eddie's character, both subtle and razor-sharp by turns as I perceive it, has made me a regular listener over the last couple of years.
I am also (unlike quite a few on the Frog, it seems) a fan of Today. I like the Humphreys / Paxman approach that politicians and others are attempting to conceal something and it's their job to get at the truth. The way that both of these have made politicians squirm over concealed truths shows that there is validity in that aproach.
Some people will think that if you create and encourage such a facility then you must respond to every point made on it. That's impossible, of course. You'd be torn apart by conflicting listener demands on programming. Content must always remain the purview of the editorial and presentation team. But there may be valid points to be made, both positive and negative, by listeners. Why not give them a weekly thread to comment upon each days broadcast.
Si.
Sorry this may come through twice - User error on my part!
-------------------------------------------------------
Okay, so we're now back in business it would seem with posts going through. And thinking about the glasshouse, Eddie.
(1) If it's helpful to you and the team, great, let's try it
(2) Assuming Yes to (1), it needs to be set up in such a way that it is clear to you/the team/the contributors which programme they are commenting on, given the Listen Again facility [you've now realised that quite a few of us, through 'busyness' can't always catch all the programme between 5 & 6]. So, either
a)there'd need to be a daily glasshouse, or a glasshouse with comment boxes for the different days. I'm no techie, so don't know if this is feasible with the Blog software. Or,
b)another suggestion, perhaps the comments could be downloaded and stored at, say, 4.30 p.m. the next day, then a clean slate left for the next programme? But you'd have to make it clear, of course, that only the current programme was open for comment.
Those were my thoughts. And, of course, not cruel must be the code, constructive being the key. And if people say they like something, Eddie, it means they like it, not that they're being sycophantic.
Jonnie is right on the money, as always. It seems like a good idea to me. O.K. there's 'Feedback' and other methods of letting the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ have your thoughts about various aspects of programming. But they are dominated by people carping about this topic, that programme or the other something. Very little that's good ever gets reported. And they have to spread themselves thinly because of the huge amount of programming that the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ puts out.
If the PM crew are genuinely responsive to their listeners comments about the broadcast programme and want direct feedback then it must be a good thing.
BigSis' breakdown of the Wednesday programme on another thread was a model for this kind of critique; direct, incisive, critical, non-abusive & fair. This is the kind of thing you should be asking for and getting.
You can't please all the people all the time. Fact.
There are times when I shout at my radio in the car, because something has provoked me to anger. It might be a comment from an interviewee, or perhaps I feel that Eddie has missed a glaring hole in the interviewee's arguments and wish he'd exploited it. In fairness it tends to be the former.
Equally there are times when I chuckle over one of the more whimsical, and perhaps less strictly 'news' items.
I like the balance in the show, the blend of hard and soft items, plus the projection of Eddie's character, both subtle and razor-sharp by turns as I perceive it, has made me a regular listener over the last couple of years.
I am also (unlike quite a few on the Frog, it seems) a fan of Today. I like the Humphreys / Paxman approach that politicians and others are attempting to conceal something and it's their job to get at the truth. The way that both of these have made politicians squirm over concealed truths shows that there is validity in that aproach.
Some people will think that if you create and encourage such a facility then you must respond to every point made on it. That's impossible, of course. You'd be torn apart by conflicting listener demands on programming. Content must always remain the purview of the editorial and presentation team. But there may be valid points to be made, both positive and negative, by listeners. Why not give them a weekly thread to comment upon each days broadcast.
Si.
What a good idea, then we can comment on the news broadcast on a news programme :)
I love the rest of the blog too though, as I am sure everyone knows, I was commenting at The Gruaniad yesterday and it all got a bit horrid really.
Yes - to a glass box trial!
I might not have something to say each and every day, and even when i do, it might only be a ha'penny comment, but 'many a mickle macks a muckle'.
...and who would dare tell off an outlet for listeners debate/feedback? Oh, welll, apart from them.
BIG SIS: i think as many of us use the listen again facility (as beautifully demonstrated when Eddie asked for instant feedback on Tues) i wonder if separate blocks for comments on different days might be overdoing it.
It is up to the frogger to clearly indicate which program they are commenting on, or indeed, which two programs they are comparing.
nikki
xx
There is of course the issue that the only feedback voices heard in the glass box are the ones talking, and not the 490 (!) other listeners who remain silent.
Will there be a limit to what extent we can discuss a certain issue raised in a programme? I see the Glass Box as being primarily feedback on the show i.e. Eddie you were wonderful in that interview with Orville the Duck for example - but will it also serve as an opinion thread? i.e. "The piece last night about NHS salary rising below inflation indicated that the spokeman didn't know the first thing about what Agenda For Change was designed for. What a turnip!"
Do we need to draw a line between the two things?
Re: Simon,
Thank you for your kind observations, if only it were true - in both senses - of 'right on the money'.
The 'Glass box' would sit well on the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ Blog. My only slight reservation is that as things stand, there is a chance that some of the comments would not be visible, until after the 'de brief' -- perhaps you can see all the comments before they are published Eddie? in which case it's fine.
As with regards to what sort of comments are made, as Belinda pointed out, I think that you should clarify that Eddie. In your Blog posting a couple of days ago you said
'We talk about what worked, what didn't. Everyone is pretty frank. Except Pretty Frank. Everyone just likes looking at him.
So perhaps that's the clarification needed? Not the Pretty Frank bit -- but 'What does work and what doesn't?
As regards to the lovely Amanda, she has many strings to her bow - one minute she was balancing the output for classic FM and the next minute producing a London phone-in with the Station Vet. - Never short of calls for that one, as I recall.
Re: Simon,
Thank you for your kind observations, if only it were true - in both senses - of 'right on the money'.
The 'Glass box' would sit well on the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ Blog. My only slight reservation is that as things stand, there is a chance that some of the comments would not be visible, until after the 'de brief' -- perhaps you can see all the comments before they are published Eddie? in which case it's fine.
As with regards to what sort of comments are made, as Belinda pointed out, I think that you should clarify that Eddie. In your Blog posting a couple of days ago you said
'We talk about what worked, what didn't. Everyone is pretty frank. Except Pretty Frank. Everyone just likes looking at him.
So perhaps that's the clarification needed? Not the Pretty Frank bit -- but 'What does work and what doesn't?
As regards to the lovely Amanda, she has many strings to her bow - one minute she was balancing the output for classic FM and the next minute producing a London phone-in with the Station Vet. - Never short of calls for that one, as I recall.
Eddie,
Don't talk to me about a glass box! :-)
Belinda (10) - good point, I think we froggers would have to be quite disciplined,keep opinions about the stories to the FB and only use the Box for programme related issues.
A glass box would be lovely. It would feel like I'd never left. I could visit just before getting the train back to Chinley.
Will there be wine and nibbles?
L
PS Mr Enos Knibbs has been let out on the countryside. We bought a cat flap for the bigger cat (or 'grossen kat' as it says on the box) and his ginger tummy fits through beautifully.
Lissa - I was in Buxworth this morning and the whole area today is bathed in spring sunshine, as though someone flicked a switch somewhere. If you get home in daylight you'll see your new home in a new way this afternoon. It's afternoons like this that remind me why I moved up here.
Lissa, how lovely to hear from you. How ARE things with you?
I'm sure Mr. Knibbs will lose that girth once he really gets into the fieldsports ;o)
Big Sis. (16). But there is nothing worse than finding favorite Puss has brought home a trophy for you, or even worse a half eaten trophy.
Bjerrum , my puss, who is now long in his teeth, occasionally catches birds and leaves a wing and a bit of offal. yuk.
B is silent in Bjerrum.
Ich lieber die grossen kat
danke!
oh goody - another dedicated place.
I for one am a little tired of being told where I can or should post.
The requirement may be that people want to talk about certain subjects and a blog as we have it is not ideal. As this posting showed, Jonnie raised something on a 'thread' about something completely different.
How about functionality that will 'tag' a person's posting?
THAT would allow me to either navigate the conversations by topic or by 'time'.
I really like the way conversations develop and there's a mixture of trivial and serious.
I dunno. I have a massive hangover and not thinking straight (don't tell the client) but tagging could be useful for a whole bunch of things... just gotta think through the interface and user issues...
[puts head back in hands..]
Re: Whisht, I tend to agree, I think Eddie once referred to it as an 'Organic blog'.
I do understand the concept of the beach, and I think it fundamentally works well. Then there is the 'Furrowed Brow' - it serves a purpose but also another place to click to, which some people overlook as the week progresses.
My thought for the 'Glassbox' - or perhaps to clarify it for new bloggers, the (de brief blog) would be generally just to leave comments about that particular edition of the programme. However I suspect it may end up as another blog.
I think, in conclusion, it's worth a go. Perhaps when our new blog arrives navigation will be easier.
Lissa, were there wine & nibbles in the post-mortem then? This being a virtual box, will be supplied with all your requirements, including a masseur to ease the stress of on air mistakes!
jonnie - I really do have a hangover!
I'll fiigure out my point sometime soon, but good luck with this (whatever it is!!)
Normally you're extremely sensible so I guess I'm just fuzzy....
;¬)
What's this about debriefing? Is it allowed on a public blog?
Seriously, I like the idea of a place to give feedback. I just wish the posts appeared a bit quicker on the blog. I often don't have much time to visit and I lose track of things I'm interested in as by the next visit I can't find things.
whisht might have a point about a tag and search facility. That way we can find stuff a bit easier.
Mary
As avery last comment - posted at 02:05 in response to Whisht,
I've just arrived back from a night out, so possibly in a pre-hangover state.
I would imagine that a good percentage of listeners never venture as far as the blog, despite Eddies on-air promotion. With that in mind and after giving it a lot of thought in the bath earlier, perhaps a better way of gaining this feedback for the PM de brief would be simply a direct 'e-mail' link from the PM Homepage.
The homepage is in many ways more important than the blog, as from Google and other sources it is the direct link to the programme. I
t could do with a little revamp. WOYW 'Windows on your world' is still at the top - and last submission date for pictures was Month back.
The message board for PM doesn't exist to my knowledge, so after the revamp, how about an extra e-mail link ... let's say in Eddies style perhaps:-) Did WE get the format right today, could YOU suggest where we went wrong? e-mail :- t*onightsedition@bbc.co....
That way we would NOT see other peoples remarks and avoid the inevitable debating, which is what the blog is for.
As regards to tonights edition - I listened between 7 and 8, the wonders of 'listen again'.
Informative, captivating and worthy would some it up.
The Sir Menzies Campbell interview was excellent. I think we all realise the significance of the Newsnight poll, and why it was maybe foolish of them to dump Charles Kennedy. As regards to Minzies comment to Eddie about Interviews he's possibly regretted doing and Eddie's instant 'off the cuff' retort -- well that's why we listen. I didn't miss the played in voices.
I Love Radio 4.
It epitomises what the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ has always been and respected for. I still say that as a whole (PM excepted) the station is sounding dated. To attract a younger audience, which it''s lacking, a certain amount of re branding is called for.
Hope a bit of this makes sense in the morning Whisht :-()
Sorry about all the Capitals - I'm useless at typing let alone bothering with HTML!
Night froglets -- It's only Radio - but it's what we do.
Couple of straplines avove somewhere :-)
Lissa (15) -
Lovely to hear from you. Is it really so long since you moved that Mr Enos Knibbs is now allowed out? Ooof.
Mind, you'll have to watch him for the first few days, or he'll be back in London presenting Newsnight or something. He escaped to produce WATO even beFORE the catflap, remember . . .
xx
LadyPen
PS Ooooooooooo they found my strapline! Must have been backed up in the bloggage behind all Fifi's :-)
PPS Oh! So I'm not allowed to post comments, am I not? We'll SEE about that!
PPS Twice! I shall change my name, then, and see if THAT fools them.
PPPS It didn't :-(
PPPPS Aha. Now I shall try posting on different thread under original name . . .
PPPPPS Hmf. It went through all right on 'Perhaps a little later'. Blogerator on that one obviously asleep.
Re: Whisht, I believe you -- perhaps the 'hair of the dog' was required. I hope you are feeling fine now.
Re: The 'Glassbox'
I would imagine that a good percentage of listeners never venture as far as the blog, despite Eddies on-air promotion. With that in mind and after giving it a lot of thought in the bath earlier, perhaps a better way of gaining this feedback for the PM de brief would be simply a direct 'e-mail' link from the PM Homepage.
The homepage is in many ways more important than the blog, as from Google and other sources it is the direct link to the programme.
It could do with a little revamp. WOYW 'Windows on your world' is still at the top - and last submission date for pictures was a Month back.
The message board for PM doesn't exist to my knowledge, so after the revamp, how about an extra e-mail link ... let's say in Eddies style perhaps:-) Did WE get the format right today, could YOU suggest where we went wrong? e-mail :- tonightsedition@bbc.co....
This way we would not see other peoples remarks and avoid the inevitable debating, which is what the blog is so valuable.
As regards to Fridays's edition - I listened between 7 and 8, the wonders of 'listen again'.
Informative, captivating and worthy would some it up.
The Sir Menzies Campbell interview was well handled by Eddie.
I think we all realise the significance of the Newsnight poll, and why it was maybe foolish of them to have dumped Charles Kennedy.
As regards to Minzies comment to Eddie about 'Interviews that Ed has possibly regretted doing', and Eddie's quick 'off the cuff' retort -- well that's why we listen.
I didn't miss the played in voices.
I Love Radio 4.
It epitomises what the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ has always been and respected for. I still say that as a whole (PM excepted) the station is sounding dated. To attract a younger audience, which it''s lacking, a certain amount of re branding is called for.
Lissa,
Hi again and good to see you frogging again. I heard yet another mispronunciation of yer name this morning on Today,
unless there's someone from Chinley called lie-Za.
Good work anyway, and hope to see ya around more often. have you looked up the bowlturner at the foot of the Pennine Way
yet?
xx
ed
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Saturday March 03, 2007 at 09:58:01 GMT
Four times so far. Will try later.
Lissa,
Hi again and good to see you frogging again. I heard yet another mispronunciation of yer name this morning on Today, unless there's someone from Chinley called lie-Za.
Good work anyway, and hope to see ya around more often. have you looked up the bowlturner at the foot of the Pennine Way yet?
xx
ed
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Saturday March 03, 2007 at 09:58:01 GMT
Four times so far. Will try later.
And another 502! Saturday March 03, 2007 at 14:12:47 GMT
And now a malicious warning!
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Saturday March 03, 2007 at 14:19:14 GMT
Lissa (15) you drank all the bloody wine. x
Can you blame her, with the people she had to put up with?
Eddie - 30 - I thought we weren't allowed to swear?
jonnie, as said before you are generally a knowledgeable and informed source, so happy to see whatever the glass box provides!
Honestly, I was at the end of a looooong week and after celebrating a lovely lovely guy's leaving of the company I'm contracting to.
However, still stands - I like(d) the organic way things developed on one or two threads. However, could I keep up? well... it was tricky!! Easiest way I've found is to search for my name to see if I've said anything on a thread and to watch for follow ups (ie if I reply to something by saying something, then I try to keep on 'listening'). But that misses all the new stuff!
Which means its a bit like a wedding party. Everyone is generally (and genuinely) interesting and nice and worth listening to but.. really, only some things will 'involve' one in a conversation. And its noisy, the tables are laid out the way the hotel has them anyway, and its difficult to get to the other side of the room cos of the dancing and music.
like the real world the 'architecture' can be a hindrance to what we want. However (as you are proving) one of the values of 'virtual' architecture is that you are able to adapt the space people inhabit quickly.
So, thanks jonnie for clearing a space outside and gathering a few chairs from the other room so people could sit around away from the music.
okay, a strained metaphor (!) but kinda close maybe (at least in my mind). But something makes me think that tagging and good interface design where the user doesn't know that they're choosing the way they negotiate the conversations would be better. Where it wasn't a metaphor for the real world - where the advantages of this 'blog-internet-thingymajig' were realised more fully.
ah... i dunno.... drink has been taken ad I ain't making much sense but I appreciate what you're doing (even if I rarely blog there!)
:¬)
Is it just my computer having a bit of a fit, or is the text of all the comments on this thread the same colour as the background?
I've just had to highlight all your lovely thoughts (and Eddie's swearing) to find out what you'd said!
Glassbox gets my vote.
That's all I popped in to say folks. Off to get on with Sunday now...
Fifi ;o)
Val P (32), I don't think he was swearing -- I think he meant a mixture of wine and blood. Clearly our Eric knows things about Lissa that we don't!
Appy - well ok, just this once he can have the benefit of the doubt. That's only because I'm in a good mood because I'm beginning to thaw out. Heating engineer has just left, having finally tracked down an intermittent (and steadily increasing) fault, which culminated in a frozen weekend.
So glad I missed all the Blue Business, I was too busy trying to keep warm.