The N Word
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Is this Deja Vu or what ??
/blogs/pm/2006/11/were_having_a_small_editorial.shtml
We got an email from Andrew Roberts in Bristol which reads: "Channel 4 are right to expel the contestant for using the N word. I was called this many times in the 60s & 70s. However 21st century Britain is no place for this kind of language, whatever the group of people using the word Nigger."
We got an email from Andrew Roberts in Bristol which reads: "Channel 4 are right to expel the contestant for using the N word. I was called this many times in the 60s & 70s. However 21st century Britain is no place for this kind of language, whatever the group of people using the word Nigger."
I am uncomfortable at it's use by white people but, from the transcript I have read (as opposed to seeing the conversation) it seemed that the girl evicted from Big Brother was using it conversationally, as though it was a way she spoke with her friends in mixed-race company.
I do think Endemol/Channel 4 have over-reacted in this case but, given the recent ruling over the Jade/Shilpa "affair" I think that is understandable.
I agree with the black comedian (didn't catch his name last time either!) that such censorship just makes racists more careful with their language.
Black people can call each other what they like, as can other minority groups who experience prejudice and "isms", because they use the terms thrown at them as a form of defiance and a form of non-violent resistance. That does not give others the right to use those terms in a "chummy" way.
Sorry, we've already done this subject to death. And I've had enough of Big Brother as well. Please give me a call when this is finished with!
Given the historical connotations behind the N word I am shocked and disgusted that anyone - but particularly black people - would chose to use this word so freely. I am a black woman who would never dream of using the N word and feel sickened by those that do.
People that feel that it is simply the 'evolution of language' need to re-connect with thier cultural roots! It is NEVER okay to use this word.
News?
I think that American guy made some sense there. A lot of people really don't understand the difference between the use of some rude words, and racism. This is a lack of understanding of what racism is..
xx T
Personally, I consider the use of the 'n word' wrong in any circumstance, no matter what the race or creed of the person using it - and I certainly do not wish or intend to provide excuses for anyone else's behaviour. However, I think it important to consider that perhaps the widespread use of the word in rap/r&b/urban music circles - often under the banner of 'reclamation' - has led to a reduction in it's impact amongst many of our population and a subsequent belief that it is acceptable. The microscope of the Big Brother house has simply highlighted that, which in addition to the no doubt itchy trigger fingers of the producers has led to the removal of the offender.
I thought it interesting that the gentleman (sorry, didn't catch his name) interviewed towards the end of the PM programme tonight made a comment about being 'astonished' at the racism shown by white people towards other white people in Britain. This, of course, is not something shown by black people towards black people in some African Countries. On no, God forbid!
I'm with RJD. I'm all for avoiding the BB words.
I remember being, if not precisely shocked, extremely startled when, in the company of my then 15 year old son (and at his instigation), I watched the fim "Boyz in the 'hood". Every other word exchanged by a certain set of blacks in L.A. seemed to be N..... When i mentioned this to my son he merely remarked that what was good enough for John Lennon ("Woman is the nigger of the world") should be good enough for dispossessed blacks
in a crime-ridden ghetto.
What I am trying to say - at last! - is that this film was reality and NOT reality TV which to my mind is both pathetic and debilitating.
Having been on receiving end of such insults as paki, black bastard and wog over the years I can see that a black person being called a nigger might be seen as something less than a term of endearment...
why is it we are even discussing this terrible tv program and no one wants to talk about saudi arms deals?
Oh Karice, NEVER say never!
Or are you wearing Jack boots and a peaked cap...?
Who was that talking on PM earlier?
Reginald sumting...he sounded like he was a black bloke...(oh, am I allowed to say THAT?)
Anyway he spoke TOTAL sense.
Racism is INSIDE. All this PC censorship of language is pathetic and achieves nothing but confusion, fear and the wrong messages.
While I agree that it is unacceptable to be racist, and irresponsible of any broadcaster to be seen to apparently condone racism, I think Channel 4 have over-reacted on this occassion, probably as compensation for their lack of reaction on Celebrity Big Brother.
Another interesting tangent from this discussion is; why is it acceptable to be sexist, but not racist? When John McCirrick (sp?) was in the Celebrity Big Brother House, his constant sexist, derogatory comments about women and his perception of their role in life was largely ignored. His comments were never open to misinterpretation, as some of the racist comments on CBB earlier this were. Why was there no backlash and no public apology then?
Karice (4),
"Given the historical connotations,..."
Are you sure you don't mean 'hysterical'?
xx
ed
Could someone please explain which h* w* thought it was appropriate to waste a section of PM discussing Big Brother? (letters removed in case any offence is caused to the editor )
Who cares what one half witted moron might have said to another half witted moron on a program only watched by halfwitted morons?
The further inclusion of comments from a semi-literate radio presenter whose only apparent qualification to participate in the discussion was his ethnicity compounded the folly of the inclusion of the item.
Today, PM et al are for the reportage and discussion of serious events and news. Please leave the discussion of Big Brother and the antics of the wifes of z list 'celebs' and footballers to Radio 1, the Sun etc.
Oh and can we please have an end to the smug, ill informed vacous witterings from the proles that all too frequently seems to be used as a filler at the end of PM.
Likewise the repeated adverts for television programs that I will never watch (I do not own a television) and helpful advice about how to find the 成人论坛 website and radio 4 blogs.
If the intention of the editor was to have a serious discussion as to whether 'nigger' is offensive per se or whether the context and audiance is the critical factor, then I would say, that their intention was well placed. I would however suggest that in reading the above the editor also has reference to the phrase 'damning with faint praise'.
While I agree that it is unacceptable to be racist, and irresponsible of any broadcaster to be seen to apparently condone racism, I think Channel 4 have over-reacted on this occasion, probably as compensation for their lack of reaction on Celebrity Big Brother.
Another interesting tangent from this discussion is; why is it acceptable to be sexist, but not racist? When John McCirrick (sp?) was in the Celebrity Big Brother House, his constant sexist, derogatory comments about women and his perception of their role in life was largely ignored. His comments were never open to misinterpretation, as some of the racist comments on CBB earlier this were. Why was there no backlash and no public apology then?
Oh Karice, NEVER say never!
Or are you wearing Jack boots...?
Who was that talking on PM earlier?
Reginald sumting...he sounded like he was a black bloke...(oh, am I allowed to say THAT?)
Anyway he spoke TOTAL sense.
Racism is INSIDE. All this PC censorship of language is pathetic and achieves nothing but confusion, fear and the wrong messages.
Jonnie (1):
Yes, we've done this a few times now. Since we're turning into "PM Gold", here's a Golden Oldie from March this year as I misinterpreted the "N-word" for comic effect...
(Yes, I'm still fishing for Sequin & Eddie to duet reading this out sometime! ;o)
At 03:26 PM on 01 Mar 2007, The Stainless Steel Cat wrote:
Re: The n-word...
Once upon an evening dreary,
While I listened, weak and weary,
To many a quaint and curious piece,
On the PM prog,
While I nodded, nearly dozing,
Bored by politicians' Brown-nosing,
Suddenly there came a talking,
With all the smarts of Stephen Hawking,
As Eddie Mair, ideas a-flocking,
Quipped and jested and gave a rollicking,
Cry of "What's the score?"
"You come on here and talk this drivel,
"While I must sit and be so civil,
"As you minimise a great upheaval,
"As being caused by the party before,
"Enough!" he said, "Get out the door,
"Go forth!" he said, "And spin no more,
"My listeners want to hear your lies,
"Nevermore!"
(With apologies to Eddie Poe)
----------
So that's twice PM's done this before, November '06 and March '07. Any more?
I don鈥檛 agree that the two gentlemen you interviewed this evening on PM are the examples of black people you should be talking to on matters like this. You will find amongst the Afro-Caribbean population those who can provide more intelligent discourse in a manner befitting a Radio 4 programme. I am black and I don鈥檛 use the N-word. The black people who use N-word on themselves are the bums of our community. It is an offensive word regardless of the context in which it was used there cannot be any excuse
I confess to actaully having watched some of Big Brother this week, yet I have no idea what's going on -- you all seem to know more about it than I do. Does this mean I should watch more carefully?
It's just a way of increasing audience figures.
Legandarysloper ( 17 ) thanks forthe post. For the record I was the half wit who decided both to cover the story and chose the guests.
So, for R4 is BB news? Most of the time no it's not. For R4 audience is BB of any interest? Again most the time - no it's not. Should that mean that we never talk about the programme - in my opinion absolutely not.
I'm stating the obvious, but PM is not a strict bulletin of hard news. It is about the mix. Eddie is one of the best journalists in the business. The record shows he can do the straight, the discursive, the funny and the serious.
So why do the row on the programme tonight? My call. Channel 4 is on a Yellow Card. It's immediate action this time around prompted a debate here - and elsewhere about the use of the N word..who can use it, whether there's a justifiable context for it or - as Reginald Hunter said on the programme - it opens the door on what is a complex subject. Sure this is a tricky one - I'm offering an honest opinion, if you're convinced it was a waste of time, then I guess you'll remain convinced it was a waste of time. For what it's worth I was more than pleased to hear from a couple of guests who probably don't wake up to the Today programme.
So, here we go again. Channel 4 making capital out of a remark made in all innocence by a poor, young and inexperienced girl during a perfectly reasonable conversation which was in actuality sorted out at the time. This is probably going to scar her for life and at the same time make a lot of money for Endemol. Shame on you Channel 4! Money is everything, people are nothing - that's the policy you really follow!
I couldn't agree more with the first c. 4 paragraphs espoused by legendarysloper (17).
I have this perpetual feeling that the editors of too-many a popular but serious R4 news programme don't want to feel like they are missing out on the DailyMailer type ratings. As for legendarysloper (17)'s use of the word 'serious', I like this, and I'd like to expand.
'Serious' in this context, and in my view, doesn't mean 'only straighlaced' or 'only the heavy news items'. Serious doesn't mean that things cannot be lighthearted.
It means 'with substantial content'. It means 'of newsworthy interest'.
Why would I want to waste my time listening to discussions based on which faddy TV programme of the moment is clamping-down on which contestant of a reality TV game show, when I could just pick up the London Lite or the Manchester Evening News.
It's not like there isn't enough 'serious' news in the world to report. Or enough detail or comment that could augment existing stories.
Actually, sorry this sounds a little ranty, but I do feel a teensy bit deprived of The Real Stuff when this type of story comes on.
The endless running commentaries on Big Brother are indeed prole fare. It's not even 'current-affairs' news. It doesn't affect the nation in any lasting way. It's not even a reflection of prole attitudes.
Not to say the subject content of the debate is not good (if a little tired). Just that the whole Big Brother house thing: it's dross that Radio 4 should leave to rot in the celeb mags.
If you have to be FROM a particular community to use a particular word how can someone from a tiny island like Shetland as I am... Ever be allowed to use humour for example, in a larger context. To say the N word is only appropriate to those who are black is so ridiculous it makes me want to cry!
Rupert (24): One of the best things about this place is the ability for viewer/broadcaster feedback to happen at this sort of speed - thank you for the honesty of your answer.
I personally feel that antics within Big Brother are not newsworthy. However, the antics of Channel 4/Endemol very much are newsworthy. I took the piece to be less about the gossip of the day "inside the House" and more to be evaluating the reaction of the broadcaster concerned.
Having watched the programme last night specifically because of this incident - I wanted to know how the words were spoken before being told by the press how I should think about them - it struck me that C4/Endemol have rather exploited the situation.
The girl evicted was clearly, blissfully unaware that her word could be received badly. However the black girl did appear to be very unsettled by the event in the discussions afterwards. A constant accusation made against Big Brother is how it can tailor it's footage to suit it's ends and I do wonder how much of this happened last night.
As a society wrapped up in a love affair with fame and riches I can see why this programme is popular. Someone once said you get the politicians you deserve. The same applies to television programmes.
I think that a lot of more minority groups tend to re-aquire negative words and use them in a positive and defiant way. In the same way that elements of the black community use the n word, so do elements of the gay community with the word 'queer'. In my work I have also heard Pakistani and oriental youths use words that I would consider insulting but that they clearly use as a matter of course.
The meaning of a work to one generation of that community can mean something quite different to the next as the context for that word has changed.
Context is the key issue here. I have not watched BB but believe that the word was not meant as an insult but rather in a way that was intended to be funny. I think that she probably failed in this attitude though!
Well perhaps Rupert was right. Channel 4 took up a large section of the 'Today programme' and most of that was related to BB.
Seems it's here to stay.
"Yawn..."
Have we finished yet....?"
Right. A message for all of those who insist that PM listeners don't want to hear stories about Big Brother:
"Speak for yourselves".
Actually, I'm not that interested either, although I have watched a bit of the programme here and there. (Apparently that makes me a half-witted moron.) My intention, however, is not to say "Do lots of BB stories please" but to point out that not one of us knows what the rest of the PM audience wants, and that I do not enjoy seeing opinion quoted as fact.
That is all.
What do I think of the N word? Never liked it, but used to hear it more than I do now. It's out of fashion at the moment. (Comes from Latin word niger, meaning black)
When I was a teenager one was not supposed to call dark-skinned people "Black". One had to say "Coloured" though pink is a colour. Now you mustn't say "Coloured" but "Black" is OK. Give it another 20 years and the N word may be the only one allowed.
As for BB, never watched it. No need, with all the coverage elsewhere.
Ap (31) - I agree with you about the opinion vs fact distinction but I honestly can't believe that Big Brother is newsworthy enough to get the coverage that it does, especially on 成人论坛 and more specifically on 成人论坛 radio.
I think it only has its prominence because it is a 鈥渕edia story鈥 and the media don鈥檛 half enjoy a media story. It鈥檚 a topic that has made me switch off PM 鈥 and that is a rare event.
Aperitif (32)...
.....spot on....
...did anyone hear that funny little John Humphries chap on the wireless this morning?
...he is totally fascinated by the whole Ch4 / BB thing....he goes on and on and on and on and on about it at EVERY chance he gets...probably some sort of insecurity thing I suppose....init?
Not sure whether the eviction was appropriate but my absolute admiration and compliments go to Reginald Hunter who gave a wonderful, articulate and very sensible view of the issue. It's so difficult to find the right words, particularly under pressure. I don't know anything about Mr Hunter but he should be given more air time.
Every one seems afraid to say it so I will.
" NICE"
What an insult it can be. Wife " do you like my new hairdo"? Me it "NICE".... no converstion this evening then...
DiW (35) -
Yes, he did seem quite fixated by the whole thing didn't he. Funny little man indeed; was quite impressed with Mr Duncan in the face of such....stuff (sorry, eloquence quotient depleted by friday brain drain).
Gosh, Peter (36), that was jolly forthright. I have a tremendous amount of sympathy for some of what you say, but you're clearly enjoying a bit of sophistry, or perhaps just kidding yourself? To argue that "words" are merely collections of "letters" is simplistic and silly - esp. in this case since it was prompted by what somebody said - don't think you will find many "letters" there. In that your comment was printed - and hopefully not removed - I think that the 成人论坛 is showing a commendable tolerance for language use. However, if you had used similar words to refer to your fellow froggers, should it have been printed? It comes down to how usage - and essentially that's "words" and "contexts". Toodle pip.
I'm not watching Big Brother at the moment. I have in the past, and I no doubt will in the future. But it "does my head in" that it's everywhere. I can rarely stomach much of Today in the morning and so listen to Chris Moyles - they were going on and on about it. Mind you, early on Chris was making the quite interesting (tho' hardly novel) point about the seeming arbitrariness of what comments are and are not allowed. He was particularly making the point that people don't think twice about commenting on his weight. And there was that story about red heads earlier in the week. Anyway, that aside, I just don't want to be bombarded with stories about BB. I accept that I'm out of step with popular culture - I've just grown bored of the whole thing for the minute - and would like to avoid it if I can. It's bad enough that my C4 and E4 schedules get a battering without everybody else jumping on the bandwagon.
God help us! Channel 4 have put their foot in their mouth again. This poor kid who knows very little about anything and who was probably born at least 30 years after the race riots in Alabama, is to be used as their scapegoat. Channel 4 will of course make a fortune out of broadcasting the N word in it's full technicolour! Come on Channel 4 where are your morals? Shame on you.
Colin (37),
is recommended.
xx
ed
Where's the
;-)
ed