Refs must punish handling in the rucks
- 6 Feb 07, 12:57 PM
Handling in rucks, it is starting to get to me.
Now, I am a big fan of Irish rugby as I think their efficiency in keeping hold of the ball looks to be the best in the Six Nations.
But exactly how much handling in a ruck are we going to allow for goodness sake, and isn鈥檛 too much of it going to spoil the game?
Referees have to be far stricter, don鈥檛 you think? Aren't killers of the ball murderers of the game?
I think if you are trying to stop a game flowing by you and a few mates grabbing at the ball in a ruck - then a quick ten minutes in the sin bin is a great idea.
Yes, I know, Scotland lost so perhaps I was a bit grumpy after I got the plane up on Sunday and collapsed in front of the TV to watch Wales and Ireland.
Jonny was the man at Twickenham, but any number of Irish rugby players influenced the game in Cardiff by ensuring that there were many hands making light work as they grabbed at the ball on the ground.
I was barking at the TV. Was it cheating? Both sides were at it, but weren鈥檛 Ireland experts?
My understanding of the law is that .
So, once there are three people there - the ball carrier, the tackler and the first man on the scene - you cannot touch the ball. Frankly, there wasn鈥檛 a chance of that happening. Not a chance.
Along with the high tackle with a swinging arm, hands in a ruck are the most frustrating facets to a game of rugby. In the olden days you stood on someone in an attempt to discourage them because there was no video evidence. If you stand on someone now you are banned for some considerable time.
The lawmakers are . If that happens, we might not see a ball for a whole again month when Ireland play Wales.
There needs to be a solution. Mine? No handling of a ball on the ground at breakdown unless it is trickling out your side of a ruck and you have driven beyond it.
Wales 27-18 England
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What I'd like to know is why when Ireland slow the ball down people here are complaining about it being illegal and game-killing and when New Zealand or Australia do it people laud them for being streetwise?
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"So, once there are three people there - the ball carrier, the tackler and the first man on the scene - you cannot touch the ball"
Yes, but if the tackler or the first man on the scene picks up the ball before the ruck has formed, then it isn't a ruck at all.
That's pretty much how it happened on Sunday, and how the ref interpreted it. We got lots of situations where the first man in got his hands on the ball (which was almost always held onto by the tackled player) and then started wrestling with subsequent players to control it - which means that a ruck never formed and it becomes a maul.
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The irritating thing about this game was that the referee did spot the handling and gave the penalty. He warned the teams about their future actions on numerous occasions, but never actually took the brave step of getting the yellow out of his pocket.
Stop an almost certain 5 points and give away a chance at 3? I know what I'd do if I was fairly certain I was going to remain on the park.
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Interesting Comments with regards to Ireland being the 'experts' on preventing quick release of the ball.
Have you watched New Zealand play in the last couple of years. I think that's perhaps where Ireland discovered how to compete and win.
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too right john. there were too many warnings and not enough yellow cards on sunday. refs should issue one warning to both captains prior to kick-off: "tell your players not to wilfully break the laws of the game, in other words cheat, or they'll be binned."
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Don鈥檛 think we can just have a go at the Irish, any team under pressure will do their best to kill the ball or slow down play. Why did John Beattie not have a close look at his own team as they did their very best to stop England getting quick ball, for many years the Scottish team has had to play a spoiling game, after all it is what they do best. That said I will have a close look at the type of game they play next weekend, maybe it will be as good a game as Wales v Ireland.
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There must always be a competition for the ball at the breakdown.
The propsed rule change allowing players to handle in a ruck as long as they are on their feet and onside simply puts more onus on the tackled player to release the ball.
The problem with the current law is that tackled players are allowed to hold on to the ball too long. In many instances it is the tackled player rather than the defender trying to wrestle away the ball who is guilty of a penalty offence.
IMO the proposed rue change should encourage better support play and beter rucking. If this means more players are committed to rucks, leaving more space elsewhere, then all the better.
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I was more surprised with the degree to which Irish tacklers (obviously not ROG) were making no attempt to roll away, and not being pinged for it. Fair play to Leamy and co mind, if the ref says nothing you just carry on as before.
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Ah, c'mon, there are soooo many ways of cheating at the breakdown that seem to go unpunished...why bother singling-out the "hands-on" crowd?
One of my personal favourites is when the tackle has been made, 3rd bloke in is on his feet challenging for t'ball, and the next guy in on the tackler's team grabs him & pulls him forwards - off his feet & over the ball... which the 3rd bloke often gets penalised for!
Then there's the persistent going off feet by the next few guys in on the tacklee's side to "protect" the ball, "blocking" in front of the ball & round the fringes to obstruct opponents that amounts to "tackling without the ball", etc,etc,etc
Norman Mair used to proffer a sensible, simple solution in his Scotsman columns - go back to "the ball must be played first with the foot" immediately after the tackle. That would have seemed too much like the evil heresy of rugby league back in the 70's & 80's, but surely wouldn't cause any schismatic agonies today?
Anyway, while yer at it, could you please clarify EXACTLY when the ball is deemed to be "out" of a ruck, and when that ball can then be challenged for, since none of the three refs at the wekend were entirely consistent in their rulings?
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It is interesting that you mention New Zealand. If Mr McCoor played in my neck of the woods he would have many many incidents of broken bones in his hands.. But there again he plays frequently in New Zealand..
And where did that ref come from ??
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"My understanding of the law is that you can鈥檛 handle the ball in a ruck.
So, once there are three people there - the ball carrier, the tackler and the first man on the scene - you cannot touch the ball. "
I think you're slightly off the mark there. A ruck is formed when at least one player from EACH team is there and ON THEIR FEET.
So assuming the tackler and tacklee are off their feet the next man to arrive is allowed to play the ball with his hands since there is no ruck yet.
Further to this, I think that if the second team/player doesn't clear him out - as they should (it is a ruck then after all!), the first player should be allowed to continue fighting for the ball, which appears to be some refs' interpretation.
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This is really pathetic.
England in 2003 were masters at it and won the world cup, New Zealand now are masters at it and are clear favourites for the world cup. Both are applauded for being clever and streetwise. Slow down attacking ball at all costs. I agree with it, if you can get away with it, do it.
As soon as one of the smaller nations start to do it there is uproar. One rule for the superpowers of the game and another for everyone else.
Ireland came back from their summer tour with the attitude that if you can beat them, copy them.
Richie McCaw has just been crowned player of the year and he spends half the game with his hand on the ball.
With the whinging since Sunday you'd think that the Irish invented the tactic.
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I agree with comment no. 2 - constantly during that game Irish tacklers were prevented from stealing the ball at the breakdown by the welsh ball carrier holding onto it. Most notably when Horsman released the ball instantly only to put his hand back on the ball to prevent the tackler (now on his feet) from pinching it!
My personal view of the referee in that game may not agree with the views of everyone else, but I thought he was poor. Very confused as to when a ruck had formed which led to some bizarre, head scratching decisons that to me almost ruined a fantastic game of modern day rugby!
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Interesting set of comments. There's no doubt that Ireland have become "streetwise" and, like it or not, that's what wins games. How wany of the great (back-row, but not only) forwards have NOT handled in rucks to the extent that they can get away with it. It's a hell of a game to referee, vision, reaction, judgement calls, background... all these things come into it. Just consider how many stoppages we would have to put up with if we had extra officals, multiple uses of technology etc... The game would end up like American Football and drag on for hours.
In all three games, I saw crooked feeds, going in from the side, collapsing mauls,handling in rucks, diving in, lying offside (and yes being deliberately pulled over BUT I also saw one of the great games on Sunday - infinitely better than either of Saturday's. For sure, Ireland got away with a lot, for sure Easterby on Czekaj was at least a penalty, for sure Wales were unlucky BUT three tries to nil still speaks for something. Roll on next weekend!
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It's not original, but just to emphasise what others have said, we've had "the worlds press" telling us for two or three years now how brilliant New Zealand are, but as soon as a northern hemisphere team start using the same tactics, it's all of a sudden ruining the game.
Yes it should be stamped down on, but at both ends of the world.
We all know what will happen, the northern refs will now stamp down on this, then come the World cup NZ will be allowed to "push the rules" yet again.
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To be a great side takes talent, athleticism, and the ability to put pressure on your opposition to the fringes of the rules. Growing up watching rugby I saw the French, Springboks, and All Blacks reinventing rule bending as an art form, even giving it a certain larrikin cache. Reflected in a player Ben Johnston was all that mix, instilling in club and country a winning mentality. Ambition is not for the faint hearted nor is it saintly. Irish rugby鈥檚 late adoption of such values obviously still sits uncomfortably with certain corners of traditional rugby thinkers.
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To be a great side takes talent, athleticism, and the ability to put pressure on your opposition to the fringes of the rules. Growing up watching rugby I saw the French, Springboks, and All Blacks reinventing rule bending as an art form, even giving it a certain larrikin cache. Reflected in a player Ben Johnston was all that mix, instilling in club and country a winning mentality. Ambition is not for the faint hearted nor is it saintly. Irish rugby鈥檚 late adoption of such values obviously still sits uncomfortably with certain corners of traditional rugby thinkers.
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Stealing and slowing down of the oppositions ball is an integral part of the game whether it is totally within the rules or not. As comment number 6 said richie McCaw the international player of the year spends half the game doing just this. Whilst using hands in the ruck is a cynical practice it is part of any good teams skills especially for the 7, just look at the likes of MccCaw and Back when he was playing. I think people should stop whinging about it and as long as the game is still good to watch (and the Ireland Wales game undoubtably was) referees should be more leniant and lt the game flow more as they often are in the southern hemisphere and to a lesser extent the magners league as opposed to the constant blowing of the referee's whistle as we see in the guines premiership.
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Slowing down or stealing the oppositions ball using the hands is an integral, although admitedly not a totally legal, part of the game. This is a skill that every good team should have in their arsenal and is a skill every good 7 should specialise in, just look at Richie McCaw and Neil Back when he was playing, both great players and both spent half of the match with their hands in the ruck scavenging for the ball.
I think as long as the game is good to watch and flows (which the Irleand, Wales game did) then people should stop whinging at it and just admire how cunning these great players are to somehow come out with the ball from under the opposition.
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No wonder you were shouting - lets get it right.
A ruck is when a minimum of two players, one from each team are on their feet bound together over the ball on the ground. You are confusing your ruck with maul criteria!!!
Kelvin Deaker said at least once that the ball was (off the ground) on bodies and therefore could be handled in what was otherwise a ruck situation. The issue is when is it a 'ruck' and the answer, at the top level anyway, is, if/when and until the referee calls it one. Prior to that he is looking for the tackler to clear away from the ball carrier/tackled player immediately and for the ball carrier to make the ball available to anyone on their feet and entitled to play it with their hands or chooses to form a ruck by binding onto an opposition player over the ball.
Simple!!!!
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"So, once there are three people there - the ball carrier, the tackler and the first man on the scene - you cannot touch the ball."
Your frustration was no doubt compounded by a lack of knowledge of what exactly constitutes a ruck. As Derek said the third man arriving, as long as he is on his feet, is entitled to pick up the ball as no ruck has been formed. That said, Ireland were living dangerous at the breakdown with tacklers making little attempt to roll away and slowing down Welsh ball.
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Hmmmm, I think it's a real shame when so called experts who are paid for their knowledge of the game get it so wrong.
Go and check on the law surrounding the tackle and the formation of a ruck.
Assuming that the tackler and ball carrier are on the ground and the first player to arrive is on his feet, then they are perfectly entitled to pick up the ball. (in fact in most situations I would be disappointed if they didn.t. Doing so helps to promote exactly the sort of open, flowing rugby we want to see!) Their is no ruck formed. That doesn't happen until at least one player from each team binds together, whilst on their feet and with the ball on the ground between them.
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Interesting set of comments. There's no doubt that Ireland have become "streetwise" and, like it or not, that's what wins games. How wany of the great (back-row, but not only) forwards have NOT handled in rucks to the extent that they can get away with it. It's a hell of a game to referee, vision, reaction, judgement calls, background... all these things come into it. Just consider how many stoppages we would have to put up with if we had extra officals, multiple uses of technology etc... The game would end up like American Football and drag on for hours.
In all three games, I saw crooked feeds, going in from the side, collapsing mauls,handling in rucks, diving in, lying offside (and, yes, being deliberately pulled over) BUT I also saw one of the great games on Sunday - infinitely better than either of Saturday's. For sure, Ireland got away with a lot, for sure Easterby on Czekaj was at least a penalty, for sure Wales were unlucky BUT three tries to nil still speaks for something. Roll on next weekend!
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It wasn't the fact that the referee allowed handling in the ruck on Sunday, it was the fact that he penalised players, but didn't issue any yellow cards. It seems to be an unwritten rule for the referees to be lenient early in the game. It's actually called "bottling" it. With this in mind players infringe, especially in try saving situations....after all 3 points against is not as bad as a possible 7 points. Do it 3 times in 20 minutes and it becomes significant!!!!!
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Handeling in the ruck is esential to slow an attacking teams momentem and allows you to set up your defense. watch super 14 rugby and you will see it at perfection. Welcome to professional rugby. With that said. it all started out fine, third man in grabs the ball on the deck but when the oposing number begins to ruck, the third man is not releasing the ball. Here is where we go off the tracks. Now we have ball carrier tackler third man with attempting to grab the ball and his oppisite number now fighting for the ball. The ref should bing the third or fourth man depending. and if it is the side repeatadly doing it bin the skipper. Either way I would like to watch a match with the stellenbosch rules to see how this is sorted out before I pass judgement.
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A referee could legimately award a penalty at every ruck. Apart from the constant handling, does anyone stand behind the back foot?
Simply follow rugby league and do away with the ruck. Once tackled, play the ball immediately and get on with the game, with everyone 10yds from the ball. Keep the maul, but the ruck has become the illegimate child of rugby that the lineout once was.
No, come to think of it England might recruit even more talented rugby leaguers, and fly past us again!
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I think a good hard look needs to be taken at how referees are failing to enforce the laws of the game...
looking at just the ruck...
"(1)A player joining a ruck must have his head and shoulders no lower than his hips. He must bind with at least one arm around the body of a player of his team in the ruck.
Penalty:- Free kick at the place of infringement."
And
"(2)(f)willfully fall or kneel in the ruck, or
(2)(g)while lying on the ground interfere in any way with the ball in or emerging from the ruck. He must do his best to roll away from it.
Penalty:- For (b) to (g), a penalty kick at the place of infringement.
Penalty:- For (b) to (g), a penalty kick at the place of infringement."
If refs actually bothered to enforce these laws, rucks wouldn't be the messy heap of bodies they have become and handling would a) be a lot more noticeable and b) not be the only way to secure the ball in most cases...
You are allowed to play the ball in a ruck, the rules say you can use your foot, the problem is that that is hard to do when the "ruck" is a pile of bodies atop the ball...
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It is rumoured that New Zealander Steve Walsh, linesman last Sunday and ref next Sunday, is to take a tough line with what he consideres illegal play at the breakdown. Now correct me if I'm wrong but I thought a linesmans job was to communicate to the ref if he sees foul play. Why did he not do this on Sunday if he felt Ireland were messin about? Hopefully his intepretation does not spoil a great occasion. On yer feet with hands on ball is o.k. until ruck is called.
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It is rumoured that New Zealander Steve Walsh, linesman last Sunday and ref next Sunday, is to take a tough line with what he consideres illegal play at the breakdown. Now correct me if I'm wrong but I thought a linesmans job was to communicate to the ref if he sees foul play. Why did he not do this on Sunday if he felt Ireland were messin about? Hopefully his intepretation does not spoil a great occasion. On yer feet with hands on ball is o.k. until ruck is called.
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I hate the way Ireland always seem to be getting criticised and i think it is because they are favourites. Besides everyone does it and Ireland are the ones that get caught.
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Matt Dawson once won the European cup as a result of play generated by hands in the ruck!. The English world cup winners were masters at handling in the ruck. The kiwis and the Aussies have been experts at this for years. To be able to get away with this type of play is an art. To me Wales are a very under estimated team and the Irish had not option but to break up the rucks by handling and it proved to be a success.
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Re: post 17
There's been a lot of talk about the ref's decisions on Sunday. He wasn't naive or turning a blind eye. He played advantage when he spotted something and that freed the game up. If he had blown his whistle for every infringement it would've been a totally different game as it was we ended with some entertaining rugby.
He made some tight decisions which were spot on with regard to forward passes and worked together with the touch judges to have some good decisions.
It was a good partnership and a far cry from the days of Ian Flemming and the sound of his whistle every five minutes.
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"Slow down attacking ball at all costs. I agree with it, if you can get away with it, do it."
I think it is absolutely ridiculous that people say it is ok to cheat! It shouldn't be there in the game. It spoils it and referees should crack down on it far more than they do.
If the referee had on Sunday, Wales could have scored at least two tries when they had massive overlaps.
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How about any hands or bodies being where they shouldn't be are rucked out of the way. Watch them fly out of the way then..
And simply bin persistent offenders...constantly...
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I think people should stop whinging about it and as long as the game is still good to watch (and the Ireland Wales game undoubtably was) referees should be more leniant and lt the game flow more as they often are in the southern hemisphere --- Good to watch,, it can also be good to watch when players follow the rules & therefore the ref doesn't have to blow. They all know the rules, play by them or be penalised.
and to a lesser extent the magners league as opposed to the constant blowing of the referee's whistle as we see in the guines premiership-- As above, if the rules get in the way then delete them. Or tell refs that they enforce the rules and players are told early on play by the rules or have a sit down.
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Absolutely spot on John! What went for rucking in the Wales v Ireland game on Sunday would have had the whole Ireland team stood watching from the touch line in my London 2 game the day before. As a referee I do not like to be heavily critical of a fellow official, but I felt that the Irish got away with so much on Sunday that I needed to pass comment. Darcy was a prime example; so many times he was the third man in at the breakdown and every time he proceeded to go off his feet, take the ball and effectively kill any chance of Wales recycling possession, quick or otherwise! Just in case you are wondering.... I'm English, not Welsh!
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All the comments so far have been of merit. Quite simply one referee cannot possibly cope. The touch judges are supposed to help but that seems to vary depending on who it is. One thing I would dearly love to see though is the end of using Southern Hemisphere referees in the 6 Nations. We all have roughly the same notion of the rules up here. Down under it's much slacker. Don't invite them in future. It would cost less in terms of travelling expenses as well!
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Everyone seems to agree that refereees need to apply the law and punish players using their hands in a ruck.
I would point out that part of the problem is that it applies to both teams. Few (players, referees, fans) seem to care about players from the team in possession using their hands in the same ruck because it keeps the game moving.
As long as referees are criticised for too much whistle spoiling the game then players will continue to break the laws and expect to get away with it.
If referees apply the laws as written then there will be a lot more whistle until the players start understanding the "new" regime.
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John - you and the rest of the moaning anti Irish brigade in the 成人论坛 are starting to get to me!
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I don't know whether the rules or the refereeing should change but the way the game is played at the moment definately isn't in line with the rules.
Here is a good video of a ruck
(1) Ireland make the tackle
(2) All blacks pile over the ball and dive on the ground so as to shield the ball
(3) Irish reach over to try to get the ball or slow it down (since there is no hope of them contesting the ball by pushing over)
(4) All blacks ruck the ball out.
The way the black shirts all pile over together means that they bring each other to the ground and none of them individually is diving on the ground but the intention is clear.
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I was at the game on Sunday and like all Welsh supporters, a little down after the game. Regarding Ireland handling the ball, who cares - all that really matters is that you play the ref and the rules of the game. Probably more disappointing is the way that the rules are interpreted by any amount of officials. The break down is one area, but there are many more. Has anyone seen a legal lineout?
Anyway, good luck to the Irish, they rode their luck and I hope that they come out all guns blazing on Sunday.
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Peter Lawther, it has ALWAYS been this way. Check J. Guscott for a prime example of this.
I just love the conversations on THIS blog! The Irish have learnt what the English, Aussies and the past Masters of it - the AB's, have been using as an edge to win for yonks. Real rugby supporters know this, but the saaawker (a.k.a. Wendy-ballers) crowd on this blog - don't.
We don't really need it against the lesser teams (like in the 6-N), but we will need to hone it for the AB's, the Saffis and maybe even the Aussies in preparation for the WC 2007.
Which is exactly what EOS is doing right now, silly!
Thanks for the practice matches though. Read it and weep innocents.
Now we are winning the smart way - ye want to change the rules!
Suffer, I say, suffer!
We are just the best team in the NH at the moment, by far. SOME people are looking for reasons to justify their national insecurities, or God forbid - facing the truth. We WILL wait for ye at the finishing line.
We will be magnanimous, unlike the Welsh in the 70's and the English in the early 00鈥檚. Why? Because we can afford to be.
I am not boasting here, just trying to educate in a subtle manner.
Truth hurts, eh boys?
Bless.
Leinster man in The Netherlands
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Whilst perhaps missing the point of the debate about refs enforcing the laws, I don't think many people mind so long as it is the same for both sides.
Players at most levels are able to respond to the way the ref is interpreting the laws, and I'm sure the international back room staff brief the players on what interpretation the officials will use for all sorts of grey areas...
To echo #26, no-one does care about handling in the ruck if the team going forward is doing it - how many times have we seen a hand pop out the middle of a ruck and present the ball to the scrum half?
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Much of the problem, and one of the reasons rugby union can sometimes be so boring these days, stems back to the change in the rucking and handling laws some 20 yrs ago. Previously a player when tackled, had to release the ball instantly on hitting the ground, and simultaneously the tackler had to release him to allow him to get up and compete for the ball. You could only handle the ball on the ground if you were not in contact with another player.The current law depends far too much on the referee's own particular interpretation eg how long is the tackled player allowed to handle the ball on the floor after the tackle. The old law gave a greater incentive to pass before you were tackled rather than blundering into an oposition player, rugby league style, and it gave a greater chance of a turnover with defences wrongfooted and out of position resulting in more open rugby. How about a trial reverting back to the old rules? And at the same time,why not also revert to the old maul and obstruction laws, such that no player could come in contact with an opposition player in front of the ball carrier?
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I agree with no 13. Irland have become masters at attacking the ball carrier to rip the ball off him. They actually were penalised too often when the Welsh should have been penalised for holding on in the tackle. Also the ref missed (as well as Easterby's foul) Welsh players Gethin Jenkins et al coming in to the ruck from the side and preventing quick release to Ireland. Yes Ireland got away with some indescretions but so did the Welsh. And three tries to nil says something about the pressure they applied. A cracker game. Both teams will be hard to beat.
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There was a time when rugby fans distinguished themselves by not criticizing the referee. Is this just yet another way that we are becoming like soccer fans? Next we'll be having assaults on the ref...
The rules of union are more complicated than most sports and it is very easy for commentators or fans sitting watching it live and/or on TV to criticize (as opposed to running up and down the pitch in the thick of it). Either we accept that refs make mistakes and teams play consider them another factor to adapt to during a game along with the pitch, the weather, the crowd and injuries, or we make the game even more stilted by introducing extra officials and TMOs for every incident where the crowd reacts badly to a decision. I know which option I prefer.
As an Irishman, I feel the fact that supporters of currently less successful nations try to explain away the fact Ireland won by three tries to nil, against a spirited if depleted Welsh team in Cardiff, by saying we cheated is a commendation as it puts us in the same bracket as the current ABs, the England team of 02-03 and the various Australian teams of the 90's!
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Agree largely with 44. It seems wrong that a superb tackle which turns the player so the ball is on the defending side does not guarantee possession to the defender. On the contrary, the defender is at risk of being penalised for stopping the tackled player from pushing the ball back under his body. I think the tackled player should be made to release the ball quiicker, and should not be able to "place" it other than in front of his body. And comment 40; as I see it going to ground beyond the ball as the AB's do repeatedly is an offence even if you're knocked off balance by a teammate. Just needs the referees to be instructed to be vigilant, and we will all get a better game to watch.
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As pointed out in comment 22, the ruck is not formed until the tackler and ball carrier are on the ground and at least one player from each team binds together, whilst on their feet and with the ball on the ground between them. An important point here being that the ball must be on the ground, if its not and held up, then no ruck is formed and can be played! failing that, the third man in can play the ball anyway!
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I have to agree with the first post, New zealand and Australia constantly infringe at the break down but are never peanalised, so why the uproar about Ireland? We (Ireland) have some great rookers in wallace, Leamy, Easterby.. well our back row not too mention o' Driscoll and Darcy. However i think they get to the ball before the ruck is formed therefore its perfectly legal. its so close to the edge of the law i can understand the grievance when you loose but isnt everything done close to the edge of the rules theese days.
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Well Mr Beattie, you said it yourself
"Yes, I know, Scotland lost so perhaps I was a bit grumpy after I got the plane up on Sunday and collapsed in front of the TV to watch Wales and Ireland". Its part of the modern game get over it, the key id to play the ref and live on the edge all GOOD teams do it, you could learn a thing or two from Ireland.
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Well Mr Beattie, you said it yourself
"Yes, I know, Scotland lost so perhaps I was a bit grumpy after I got the plane up on Sunday and collapsed in front of the TV to watch Wales and Ireland". Its part of the modern game get over it, the key id to play the ref and live on the edge all GOOD teams do it, you could learn a thing or two from Ireland.
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Well Mr Beattie, you said it yourself
"Yes, I know, Scotland lost so perhaps I was a bit grumpy after I got the plane up on Sunday and collapsed in front of the TV to watch Wales and Ireland". Its part of the modern game get over it, the key id to play the ref and live on the edge all GOOD teams do it, you could learn a thing or two from Ireland.
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Referring to Mr Chapman (#36), I am also a referee. D'Arcy is one of the best in the world at competing for a ball while on his feet. Watch him make a tackle and see how quickly he gets back on his feet. Invariably he is trying to wrestle the ball from the tackled player on the ground long before the next player arrives, and certainly before it's a ruck. There may well have been a couple of situations where Irish players might have been penalised for holding onto the ball, but there should have been more the other way where tackled Welsh players held onto it for far longer than should be permissible (in my opinion). That said, the match referee is who decides what is allowed, and who informs the players when it is a ruck or a maul and when they must release the ball. The players respond to his instructions or pay the penalty, and the ref was consistent at least.
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Why all the Ireland slapping?? lol.
Every side does it. The year England won the world cup a certain Neil Back was extremely efficient at it.
Pot... Kettle... Black I think.
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No competing for the ball with your hands? Why dont we say that the tackled player puts the ball between his legs and the other team can't have it. Oh wait a minute that rings a bell.... isn't that rugby league?
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A ruck (at a tackle situation is only formed when one player from either side ON THEIR FEET are over the Ball. On Sun When BOD and GD were at the tackle area they had their hands on the ball before the first welsh player arrived on their feet. By this time if BOD or GD had their hands on the ball and the ball is off the ground it is NOT a ruck.Yes there is a grey area in the timing and sequence of events at the breakdown. But i think more emphasis should be placed on the ball carrier to release the ball immediately when he hits the deck. If they are getting turned over too easily whilst on the deck they need to work on their body position throughout the tackle in order to present the ball were these guys cant poach
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I agree that the ball shold be released quicker, and straight in front of the tackled player...no matter which way he is facing. The tackler should then be free to pick up the ball as soon as he has released the opposing player.
The onus should be on quick release to the front of the player. Not on the specific ordering of arrival etc... it would speed up the game and make tackling more central.
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Why do we need Southern Hem refs in our tournament? He was poor at the breakdown becauce in Super14 there is no contest once the ball is lost/won. 5 penalties against Ireland in the Red Zone says it all! Play the ref and all that, fine, Wales not streetwise, ok, Ireland cheating? But truth is Mr Deaker or however you spell his name was poor and very quiet at breakdown. CRCC 4ever.
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but the game needs to flow. once the ball is won its in everybody's interests that its got to the number 9 as soon as possible - in an international game where the rucking is so professional and comprehensive that means getting a few hands in. you won't generally see the referee let it go if that how the ball was won, but if they were sinbinning it the ball would never come out and we'd see needless scrum after needless scrum.
i think if anything they need to be more strict on the body position of forwards going into the ruck. in reality the ball is often impossible to turn over even if the runner has very little support became of the way the first forward will cover the ball - but this has nothing to do with hands.
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Ireland are becoming experts and slowing doen the game. Wales heeded the refs warining and kept their hands out of the ruck and it was only the continuous killing and slowing down of the ball that enabled the irish to stop the welsh pack. O'Callagan, if spotted killing the ball, could have spent almost the entire 80 minutes in the sin bin. The backs for both teams displayed the best running rugby that we are likely to see in the tournament and it is unfortunate that the irish pack decided to kill the ball at the beginning of each phase. it was clear from the skills that wales seemed to have the upper hand in the backs with the ball but with no first team wingers on the field could not finish any moves. ireland were far more clinical with their finishing and the performance of d'arcy in the centre was an example of the fantastic rugby on show.
Its a real shame ireland had to marr a fantasticly competitive and exciting game with such cynical play at the breakdown. lets hope the refs pick up on the killing the ball at the ruck as well as the straight feed into the scrum of which Stringer seemed to have no knowledge!
Ireland are undoubtedly the best team in the competition but lets see them win with fairness and flair in the FORWARDS aswell as the backs.
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I agree with the conclusion that the referee was very poor. I have recently been watching my local regional team playing and the vast majority of referees that I have seen, with the exception of one, were all very poor. I was under the impression that referees were professional now, however from the side line it does not look like they are. I know alot of tehm give up their spare time etc but come on, at elast have consistency in standards.
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I thought the referee of the Wales v Ireland game was very poor at the breakdown. I was screaming at the tv for him to shout "ruck" or "hands away", yet the call never came.
Also I thought he was poor at the scrum - I saw John Hayes binding on Gethin Jenkins' arm at least 10 times without being penalised - surely the ref should have taken a closer look given the amount of collapsed/crooked scrums.
And don't get me started on Stringer's crooked feeds into the scrum......
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I agree with Laurence (Post no 12). Neil Back was a master of slowing down opposition ball. He had too as England lumbering forwards would have been too slow to arrive otherwise..Ireland are now doing it because everyone else is doing it. Its not our fault referees are not applying the laws. I hardly once heard the ref shouting"ruck" at breakdown time. Fair game I say. PS France and England beware-Shane Horgan is back!!
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Agree with Jamie there - Ireland are increasingly becoming very good at slowing the play at the breakdown. A number of times they managed to disrupt the momentum that Wales tried to keep hold of, however my only gripe with that was the amount of times players were seen to be diving over the ball and the referee doing nothing about it. Yellow cards should have been shown, and that would made the game more free flowing and disruption free.
Although a special mention must go out to Mr. P Stringer who made a great attempt at 'trying' to put the ball in straight at the scrum - keep on trying mate!
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The issue in my mind is not really what the Irish did or didn麓t do, but the ref. Kelvin Deaker - he was awful - and should not be refereeing at this level of competition.
Anyone who plays rugby week-in, week-out will know you push the boundaries to gain an advantage - every team does it at every level. Some weeks the ref. pings you, some weeks he doesn麓t, but that is the nature of sport.
Wales were hard done by by the referee but should have showed more 麓mongrel麓at the breakdown. It is generally acknowledged that when refs don麓t fix the problem, then the players usually do. I just didn麓t see the Welsh players even attempting to sort the Irish out, they were too timid - Ref. Kelvin Deaker was lucky not to have an all-in brawl on his hands given what was going on. Had that been Ireland-France or England, could have been ugly.
Irish were smart, Wales were unlucky no doubt about that and the referree was frankly appalling and really was the 16th Irish player.
Other than that, what a game of rugby, was superb.
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Some of the posts suggesting this is anti-Irish or against Ireland because they are favourites is nonsense.
I share the view that they should have got pinged for it badly - indeed some decisions (including how O'Callaghan after 3 'final' warnings stayed on the field) seemed to go very much in favour of the favourites.
The argument that 'everyone else has done it' simply isn't good enough. It was blatant, it was pathetic. The laws have sought gradually to discourage gamesmanship/cheating of this sort by slowing the game down and encourage a greater flow of the game - thus if its' being committed it has to be stopped and punished appropriately, whether Irish, Welsh, NZ, Aussie or English..................if it's being done as blatantly as the Irish on Sunday especially so....but it has to be clamped down on more to encourage the running, free flowing game most of us like to see (front-rows excepted).
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I agree with Laurence (Post no 12). Neil Back was a master of slowing down opposition ball. He had to as England'slumbering forwards would have been too slow to arrive otherwise..Ireland are now doing it because everyone else is doing it. Its not our fault referees are not applying the laws. I hardly once heard the ref last sunday shouting"ruck" at breakdown time. (maybe because I was in the pub) Fair game I say. PS France and England beware-Shane Horgan is back!!
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I have read through a lot of the comments and play 7 for my local club. One thing i would like to emphasise is the fact that many times the player on the ground is the cause of the problem as he does not release quick enough causing the fourth player to try and ruck away the player with the ball and on his feet. This is when a pile up of bodies occurs. Also, i think Wales and other countries who are complaing would be better off looking at how ireland secured the ball and got it out of the contact area quickly which i think was the ultimate factor in Ireland winning the game!! I think a lot of it came down to the Irish players superior skill and strength in the back line, especially the centres where Ireland have 2 'back row forwards' who are also the best centre partnership in world rugby! and yes, i think they are better than the New Zealand centre pairings!!
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I'm glad a few others see the game like I do. Handling in the ruck should not be confused with handling the ball after a tackle. In the Ire V Wal game, too many times I saw Irish clearly denied possession because the Welsh tackler refused to let go of the ball to allow the Irish tackler (who had bounced back to his feet and taken hold of the ball) pick the ball up. In my eyes this is a clear penalty against the tackled player for holding on. I also see it obviously happening in any other game on TV. Professionalism means the game is getting quicker. Retaining possession isn't a god given right to the attacking ball carrier. If a player is tackled he should release the ball immediately. If the defending tackler can get back to his feet and get hands on the ball then good for him - it's legal and should be quick ball, but to the other side! The way to retain possession is for the supporting players to arrive more quickly and form the ruck. Don't moan about killing the ball if all they're doing is competing for it with their hands. The real ball (& game) killers don't get their hands anywhere near the ball - the refs should blow for a scrum or penalty more quickly if players won't/don't stay on their feet (just like the law says.)
And just for the record: Yes I'm a back row player but no, I'm not Irish, I'm English.
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We have a lubly wubly graffics techer kalled KIBLY WIBLY hoo we luvvy wuvvy vewy much!
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What I found most annoying during the Wales Ireland match was the referee saying for example "hands off No 8 red" and then when No 8 stood up with the ball he had just ripped, allowing him to play on. It doesn't matter if the referee can't see, if he tells someone to do something and they do the opposite it is a penalty, wether they are technically in the right or not. Not doing so allows players on both sides to believe the referee is ineffective.
When the referee gave a penalty against England for not stepping back after he told them to at the lineout, not one commentator or player protested, and I believe the game was better for it.
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Most people still seem to be missing the central point. That is, that the situation described originally is not a ruck. Consequently the arriving player is entitled to pick up the ball. End of debate!
Post 61 highlights another interesting point. So many people are happy to stand and bitch about referees and fairly often their opinions are based on an incorrect or incomplete understanding of the laws. You say "from the side line it does not look like they are" I've always wondered why they don't get referees to manage the game from the side line or row 28 of the grandstand where you clearly get a much clearer view of the game!
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We have a lubly wubly graffics techer kalled KIBLY WIBLY hoo we luvvy wuvvy vewy much!
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England has no idea what awaits them in Croke Park, I hope and don鈥檛 expect it to be nasty, but trust me you will never see such a passionate, loud and partisan 82000 people. Be prepared for the Irish team to put their body, career and life on the line for the tiniest advantage.
I will be at the game on Sunday week and like the overwhelming majority of Irish fans, I will be passionate and desperate to win but will remain on the right side of decency. Such is the desire to witness this game that tickets are reportedly changing hands for up to 2000 euro each. But there is potential for trouble and a lot of trouble at that, it would only take a few stupid Paddies or some ill advised words from English fans to spark something nasty and thus I am writing this to explain the precedence.
As you might have heard the GAA (Gaelic Athletic Association) have only allowed rugby and soccer (English games in there eyes) to be played in their stadium this year despite years of petitioning. Many in the GAA claimed that soccer and rugby were the their biggest competition and that facilitating them would ultimately contribute to their own demise, others used this as an excuse to prevent the inevitable 6 nations match with England and the sound of 鈥楪od save the Queen鈥 and 鈥楻ue Britannia鈥 on their hallowed turf.
The germination of the GAA happened in a time when Ireland was profoundly oppressed by the English, although it did not become an official organisation till much later. It was founded in an attempt to keep alive Irishness although eventually morphed into a more sporting organisation. It always had an uneasy relationship with the middle classes in Ireland which they believed many of which were 鈥榃est Brits鈥 and rugby was seen as the West Brit鈥檚 game.
To make matters worse, Croke Park was the location of one of the most infamous incidences of our shared history. In 1920 during a Gaelic football match British Soldiers entered Croke Park and disturbed a match. The match was halted until a footballer kicked a ball over the soldiers heads and collected it on the far side and scored a point, the crowd reacted with cheers and laughter and the soldiers enraged by this opened fire on the crowd killing 14 and injuring scores.
Lets hope it鈥檚 the rugby that wins out and from my point of view that they are wearing green. With all the motivation Ireland has for the English match, despite the fact that we usually beat ourselves when we should win, I can鈥檛 see Ireland lose, I am however worried about the French game鈥 we don鈥檛 have the same inspiration to beat them and it looks like a few of our best are not 100%. We didn鈥檛 play well against Wales but how often has Ireland not played well and won, a good sign, something England and France have been doing for years in the 6 nations. This is our best side ever and thus our best chance ever.
COME ON IRELAND REALISE YOUR UNDOUBTED POTENTIAL
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In my opinion as a general rugby fan, there is one problem which for me is the most important. It seems that many people seem to be of the opinion that there is a great divide between northern hemisphere refs, and their southern hemisphere counterparts.
If this is the fact of the situation then something has to be done immediately! it is simply not possible for a professional sport to procede with this amount of "uncertainty" (in the legal sense). the rules and their application need to be very well harmonised and uniform, so that players from both hemispheres can join in one tournament - the world cup - without any confusion. Its only going to cause bitter arguments and will ultimately undermine the legitimacy of the results - I remember in the australia england 03 final there were lots of comments made about the referee's consistent pinging of an england offence in the scrum was it? (memory a bit hazy) but most people in the northern hemisphere didnt agree with his interpretations. Imagine if england had lost as a result of that difference in interpretation of the laws....
it has to be sorted out i think, much more importantly than handling in the ruck!!
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What an incredibly blinkered article. So it was better 'in the old days' when you could stand on someone. Advocating assault isn't really the remit of a sports commentator. Scotland and Wales did far more than Ireland of the actions he is complaining about, it was just the fact that Scotland in particular were so inept that he has wiped it from his very selective memory.
This sort of article is of a piece with those who don't like teams of 'lesser' historic prestige, becoming more sucessful so the authors of trhese snide articles invent a thinly veiled accusation of 'they really only got here by cheating' which is the implication of his article. It was o.k. when Ireland were getting stuffed by everybody, now they have gained a small measure of success the damning by faint praise brigade appear as sure as night follows day.
Would it not be a better use of his time to write an article about a member of the Welsh staff trying to 'fix' Steve Walsh, (who is notoriously anti-Irish anyway), against Ireland next Sunday. This despicably petty and small minded actions speaks volumes for the 'sneak' who did it don't you think?
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Some of the posts suggesting this is anti-Irish or against Ireland because they are favourites is nonsense.
I share the view that they should have got pinged for it badly - indeed some decisions (including how O'Callaghan after 3 'final' warnings stayed on the field) seemed to go very much in favour of the favourites.
The argument that 'everyone else has done it' simply isn't good enough. It was blatant, it was pathetic. The laws have sought gradually to discourage gamesmanship/cheating of this sort by slowing the game down and encourage a greater flow of the game - thus if its' being committed it has to be stopped and punished appropriately, whether Irish, Welsh, NZ, Aussie or English..................if it's being done as blatantly as the Irish on Sunday especially so....but it has to be clamped down on more to encourage the running, free flowing game most of us like to see (front-rows excepted).
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Am I on a rugby or football website?
The whole reason we love the game is because its faster, rougher, and not the nambee stopping the game every 2 minutes to blow the whistle, or players rolling on the ground, because someone kicked their ankle!
Mr Wilkinson had a debatable try on Saturday. The result has put England as a more worthy contender, something they didn't illustrate in the autumn internationals. But they were the better side on Saturday.
The Welsh played a very good game on Sunday - very good! But they lost!
Quit whinging about details.... Ireland are a formidable side at present - on a global scale! Something they have NEVER been in their history. Allow them their moment.... god knows the Southern hemisphere's will be laughing at the descent!
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12. At 03:17 PM on 06 Feb 2007, Laurence wrote:
"This is really pathetic... As soon as one of the smaller nations start to do it there is uproar."
Ireland one of the smaller nations are they? You know I thought many people were saying they were the best team in the northern hemesphere. As an England supporter I would certainly say that at this point Ireland are a better team than England at the moment, what is with this smaller nation crap? give yourselves some credit.
A Ruck is formed when the ball carrier has gone to deck and there is a player, on his feet, from each team fighting for the ball. The tackler should have rolled away so he shouldn't be an issue. The main purpose of the rule is to stop the ball being picked up and a maul forming over the prone ball carrer, secondary function is to allow free flow of play and advantage to the attacking side.
Killing the ball through a professional foul is part of the game. If you are within your own 22 and your defence is all at sea you are desperate to slow it down to recover the situation. That said you are aware that if you are caught you are going to the bin. Handling within the ruck will always happen and I am happy to see it continue, but players should be sin binned when caught.
I view this as a simila situation to people breaking into your house: You find someone has broken into your house you should be allowed to deal out some on the spot justice, you see a hand trying to move the ball when it shouldn't then the offending hand should be reminded about the rules with a few well placed studs. This will save the need to stop the game and award a penalty, so in the long run that would be just as good an answer as allowing hands in the ruck.
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To John Beattie - you've certainly sparked a debate here. How about a blog on the Stellenbosch variations currently being trialled in the Super Cup here in Scotland? There have been some fast and high-scoring games using these variations (incl. use of hands in the ruck). My beloved Dundee High School FP lost a belter by the odd point in 65, I think it was.
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I agree with the conclusion that the referee was very poor. I have recently been watching my local regional team playing and the vast majority of referees that I have seen, with the exception of one, were all very poor. I was under the impression that referees were professional now, however from the side line it does not look like they are. I know alot of tehm give up their spare time etc but come on, at elast have consistency in standards.
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Let鈥檚 face it since the introduction of professionalism there has been a big divergence in how the game is played between "weekend teams" and the elite yet they are both meant to play to the same rule book. As has been mentioned above a lot of what happens in elite games (rucks, scrums, lineouts, offside, obstruction...) wouldn't be tolerated in your typical club game. They can't have two sets of rules so we get 'interpretation' (or legalised rule bending) which leads to inconsistency and uncertainty. The simple answer would be to tell the refs to play to the letter of the law. Admittedly that would be such a change for the players that we鈥檇 see games of 7 aside due to the number of cards being shown but they鈥檇 soon learn and may be we鈥檇 get some decent, fast flowing and (legally) skilful rugby.
Don鈥檛 worry I鈥檒l wake up and stop dreaming now鈥
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hark at John Beattie - is this the fella who for years played on a Scottish team that played to the very limit (being nice) or very well beyond (being fair) the offside laws. and now we should be upset by the poor fella shouting at his tv. Wake up John and realize that teams push the sport to its limit, you did, others do and forever will. I watched the game and saw an awful lot of things I would not agree with but the refs job is to apply the laws as he interprets them equally to both sides. While I disagree with his interpretation, I don't believe he was anything other than consistent. So perhaps some analysis of the fact that although outplayed for long periods of time, the Irish team showed world class clinical finishing skills and line breaking skills as opposed to lateral movement or perhaps a comment on how the much vaunted 'strategy' of disrupting the Irish scrum with a powerful front row came to nought. Any old eejit can shout at the tv, tell us something we might want to hear.
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Two points. Firstly hats off to Ireland (and England c.2003, and the current All Blacks) - if the ref isnt going to sin bin players - why not use your hands and slow the game down. Don't think we can complain too much about the Irish defending 'effectively'.
Refs do need to be sharper on this, and referee more on what they see and less on reputation (McCaw / Smith have glittering reputations which means they get away with more - compare this with e.g. Moody).
Final point - 'preventative' refereeing may be going too far - how many times do we hear 'Hands off 7' from referees. Players are clever enough to know that slowing the ball down long enough to be warned is often enough to stop attacking momentum.
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The whole area of the ruck is continually exploited and there is no consistent refereeing. I cant remember the last ruck i saw where the players stayed on their feet. Scotland have done the blanket dive clean out for years, George Chuter did a one man impression of it on Sat (got pinged once thou)and Martin Williams should have boots on his knees! The irish were a perfect example of how to slow ball down and prevent fast play - the last time Wales didnt score a try was against New Zealand - coincidence?
More consistency please.
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All of this agonising over the breakdown is a little pathetic. I can only imagine all the Kiwi/SA/Aussies find it very amusing to see how the tea drinkers and croquette players are arguing over the rules. Would England have won the world cup if Martin Johnson and his pack agonised over what was right and wrong. Please all stop being so naive, modern rugby is ruthlessly competitive.
Fair points on inconsistency in Refereeing between NH ans SH. If NH teams want to compete with SH it should do exactly what Ireland did last Sunday by pushing the Ref to his limits.
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can someone please explain how picking up the ball in a ruck while being onside and on your feet is a new law?
I am very confused....
I played rubgy throughout the 70s and 80s and up to today this is the law - if you are on your feet you can play the ball.
Watch how quickly D'Arcy ans O'Driscoll get back to their feet in the tackle zone and try to rob the ball carrier.
On sunday Wales were as guilty of holding on as Ireland were of slowing down the ball.
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Why is Ireland being vilified? Just about every time Wales took the ball into the tackle, they hung on like limpets and I cant remember an instance of them being penalised. They were every bit as guilty as Ireland of contravening ruck/ tackle laws.
On Saturday, England were guilty at just about every breakdown. I heard at least three final warnings and still nobody was carded.
I'm all in favour of punishing the guilty to speed up the game, but I object to one side being singled out when all are equally guilty.
Froggie.
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In relation to #60. Stringer had no knowledge of straight feed into scrum? May i ask one question? Does any scrum half know about the straight feed? I havent seen a straight feed since ..... moses built the arc. Wales, England, Scotland, France, Italy, Ireland, Argentina, NZ, SA, and Aussies, all are guilty of the no knowledge of a straight feed into scrum.
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To John Beattie
I remember excllent back row forwards like Mr Jeffries and Calder being pretty effective at the dark arts of playing on the edge - so dont single out Ireland - even Donal Courtney!
As for slowing up the Wales Ireland game - I dont think so.
Refs and consistancy - I look forward to it
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As a welshman l have no complaint aboute the Irish tactics last Sunday, but l do have a problem with the referee who sevral times gave last warnings to Irish players for hands in the ruck but did nothing aboute it. Also collapsing a Welsh driving maul in full flow a meter from the try line could have been seen as a penalty try. Not a very good game for the ref.
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Surely this is the tip of the iceberg. What about the other blatant transgressions of the laws:
1.entering from the side (a speciality of the Irish and Kiwis).
2.Lineouts with no spacing and players being held in the air for minutes for a passing seagull to arrive. Has 'assisting' been done away with.
3. The introduction of the Rugby League scrum with the ball being fed into the back-row, or at the very least the second row and never ever straight.
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C'mon the Irish were blatently slowing the ball, just like England did in '03 and all "streetwise" teams do when they can. Is called playing to the ref! I'm not saying NZ don't slow the ball but their success isn't a direct result of hands in the ruck. Have a look - they are winning their games by an average of 25+ points against ALL opposition. Hardly desperation tactics. And for all you McCaw doubters who claim he'd "have a few broken bones" wake up, we in the south don't mind a bit of ruck & kick, it's the northern fish heads who are softening the game, changed the ruck laws pre '99, changed the scrum laws this year. I 100% say we'd welcome a hands and all contest at the breakdown, can see your teams being brutalised by bigger, faster guys hitting the rucks, would be a beating.
Go the Irish - only NH team worth watching.
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There's lots of comments about how poor the referee was and whether Ireland are alone in cheating/bending the rules; however surely the tongue in cheek comment about discouraging handling in the ruck with some good old fashioned rucking isn't too far wide of the mark.
As an ex-amateur player I still bear the scars gained whilst attempting to slow the play down by deliberately lying on the wrong side of a ruck and from trying to handle the ball in the ruck. Bringing back "proper rucking" won't stop players slowing the ball down but it will reduce the frequency of it happening. There are only so many times you can withstand a "gentle shoeing" so the players will at least save their indiscretions for the vital moments.
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To Tim.
Just because we are better does not mean we are not smaller.
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As was said in Comment 24, the issue on Sunday wasn't so much the ref not penalising Ireland but that he didn't use the yellow card.
In a 15 minute period, Wales were inside the Irish 22 three times, every time the Irish defense were stretched and every time Ireland gave away a penalty.
Surely the yellow card should have been used.
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I generally agree with your comments and this is one of my bugbears, however you and the section on the laws have got a couple of things wrong.
You need 2 people (1 from each side) over the ball on the ground to form a ruck not one. The first person there can pick the ball up and the first offence is often the tackled player holding on to the ball.
Secondly no players in the ruck are able to use their hands, which includes players from the tackled players side, despite what might appear to be allowed in internationals.
I think that the proposed law change to allow handling on the floor would be a disaster and we should be moving the other way to removing handling in rucks.
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C'mon the Irish were blatently slowing the ball, just like England did in '03 and all "streetwise" teams do when they can. Is called playing to the ref! I'm not saying NZ don't slow the ball but their success isn't a direct result of hands in the ruck. Have a look - they are winning their games by an average of 25+ points against ALL opposition. Hardly desperation tactics. And for all you McCaw doubters who claim he'd "have a few broken bones" wake up, we in the south don't mind a bit of ruck & kick, it's the northern fish heads who are softening the game, changed the ruck laws pre '99, changed the scrum laws this year. I 100% say we'd welcome a hands and all contest at the breakdown, can see your teams being brutalised by bigger, faster guys hitting the rucks, would be a beating.
Go the Irish - only NH team worth watching.
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I am a football man myself but like watching the 6 Nations. What is really annoying is the amount of kicks/penalties england seam to take instead of going for a try. All englands game play is give it to wilko then either 3 points drop kick or play for penalty range. The actual tries they got against scotland were either a 'no' try right foot was down or a scotland mistake 'school boy error'. Rugby should be about points 'lots of' and scoring lots of tries for the crowd enjoyment as that's what it's all about.
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"In the olden days you stood on someone in an attempt to discourage them because there was no video evidence. If you stand on someone now you are banned for some considerable time."
Exactly. Bring back PROPER rucking. Then nobody will slow the ball down.
If you lie on the ball, you're grass.
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The ref could have given out a card early on in the game and he didn't. Guys will gauge early on in a game if they can get away with hands on the ball and if they can they will keep on doing it.
The real question is how do we eliminate the ambiguity from the ruck situation? The idea of allowing hands on in the ruck appeals to me. It means teams will have to commit more players to the rucks as they will be fighting for the ball more. This will tie in more forwards and provide more space around the field. The decision will be how long do you give teams to get the ball out and who do you award possession to. If you give possession to the attacking team they can play a slow and deliberate game constantly going from ruck to ruck but with an opportunity for the defending team to win the ball back at each ruck situation. If you give it to the defending team there is an incentive to get in and hold on every ruck to try and win possession.
The next question is how do you re-start the game. If it is with a scum then this will see scrum become a much more important part of the game. If you award a free kick with the opposition 10 yards back then you鈥檒l see the forwards fan out across the field. I am not sure which is preferable. Both of these re-starts will also see the game slowed down considerably. I would propose a roll back situation like rugby league where the opposition don鈥檛 have to retreat so far and the re-start can be done quickly.
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Far too much whinging going on here. Show me a good team with experience in any sport that does not test the elasticity of the referee and the rules. You cannot honestly think that having hands in the ruck is bad for the game. It allows weaker teams to disrupt rampant teams as the Scots have done for years. I'll start worrying about cynical rugby when players start acting like alot of the soccer players out there.
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This welsh rugby team is one of the best I鈥檝e witnessed. The speed at which they approached the game forced Ireland (second best team in the world) to give away penalty after penalty, and with better refereeing, and a decision to go for the line instead of goal by Stephan Jones, Wales would have been comfortable winners. I believe Wales will win the remaining games and maybe win the six nations if Ireland slips up in one game.
As for the coming world cup, the only team Wales need fear is New Zealand (although the game in November was an absolute tactical disaster showing a Wales team playing a kicking game (kicking the ball to the New Zealand backs time and time again!!!) with only Stephan Jones and without Gavin Henson or James hook starting). Bad refereeing, and teams that base they鈥檙e game around it will always be a part of the game, but I think a full strength Wales team on Sunday would have coped with this.
As for the people saying that Ireland deserved to win because they scored three try鈥檚 to nil, its only that way because Ireland were aloud to cheat in preventing a number of certain try鈥檚. you can call it street wise if you like, but its still breaking the rules of the game, and if that鈥檚 how you like to win then carry on.
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The author of post 99; two points.
Didn't you see England's first try? A fine example of direct, fast, handling, running rugby.
As for complaining about the number of penalty points England get, this is a common misconception. It is not England's fault that they got lots of penalties. It is the fault of the team giving away the penalties. These are usually down to deliberate slowing or spoiling tactics. If they don't occur the attacking team would be able to continue their attack and score more tries. Simple really!
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I think some people label play "hands in the ruck" when it is often legitimate play by the tackler. I also agree that often the tackler's play is made to look illegal by the fact that the tackled player fails to release the ball.
I think the increased use of hands is in some part due to the referees basically outlawing any vigourous rucking of players lying on the wrong side and stopping the ball. They either penalise the rucking team or blow for a scrum citing "too many bodies".
With the modern rules regarding the breakdown so complex I also feel the continued calls for yellow cards over the top. If it is blatant and calculated then fine. But if it is merely an infringement it is no worse than someone wandering offside in the backline or committing one of the many scrum offences. Some commentators seem to think that any infringement in a ruck or maul within the 22 should be an automatic yellow card.
I thought the Irish defended well. There could have possbly have been a card during the game but it was the Welsh lack of finishing that was the issue not the lack of yellow cards given.
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would it not be a good idea to let the Welsh win every time just to avoid the earache when they lose , Then the rest of us can get on with playing the game for what it is ..a bit of fun and a chance to travel away now and then in the bleak months of Feb/ march ...
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If hands weren't used in the ruck, would the ball ever come out?
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would it not be a good idea to let the Welsh win every time just to avoid the earache when they lose , Then the rest of us can get on with playing the game for what it is ..a bit of fun and a chance to travel away now and then in the bleak months of Feb/ march ...
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forget hands in the ruck what about feeding the ball into the scrums? It becaming beyound a joke! I have not seen one international so far when the SH have legally feed the ball into the scrum. My old school coach used to hate it and would penalise anyone who did it. All i am asking is for player to set a good example and play by the rules
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Remember that the game is all about penalties. Rucks provide ample opportunities, along with line-outs, mauls and scrums, for the referee to award penalties, to keep the score ticking along and for the players to catch a quick lungful of air.
As other posters have pointed out, a referee could award a penalty at every ruck, so it has to be an integral part of the game. If you clean up the ruck then there will be less goal kicking chances and the players would struggle to keep up a frenetic pace.
If it ain't broke...
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Soon as ref calls ruck formed, players should release the ball, I would have lost the plot against IReland Steve Jones should have stood up to the ref and said, get the cards out even if its for a welsh player, to get the game going and sort the tackle area out, the ref was div 4 standard, Changlen and Walsh seemed to lack any confiction in assisting the ref. appauling thats my verdict
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You know, to be honest, I think there's too much detail in a lot of the posts here on what can and cannot be done rather than why it is and isn't allowed.
The rules should be written so as to make the game more enjoyable to watch (and to play) - to that end, allow players to use hands to bring the ball back more quickly (as most referees do already) but punish people who are trying to drag the game into attritional mess.
If a yellow card removes a cynic, so be it but if several yellows make the game less interesting, it's in the interests of everyone not to let that happen.
Personally, I think the biggest issue at the breakdown is not hands in or people playing the ball off their feet (though that is almost everyone these days) but merely the consistency of the official within the game. If 6s and 7s know what will be allowed, the game will flow and the spectators will enjoy it. At 拢65 and up for a ticket, that's where I would direct my focus.
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I say Bring Back the Biff!!!!
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Right. Want to know what I really think, even though this might be sniffed at by the purists?
WELL - I coach rugby and, yes, I was a rough player but I have to preface this by saying that I hate violence.
BUT - handling the ball in rucks does get to me. Nobody would dare put their hands near a ball when an All Black pack was around.
You see, it is one of the best things to have happened to rugby - the removal of wanton violence - which has brought about one of the most frustrating - both teams grovelling with their hands for the ball and lying on the wrong side.
I think there is a little merit in being allowed to dissuade men who are deliberately obstructing free play if referees won't sin bin them.
As I say, happy rucking everyone, and we will see you all in Edinburgh this weekend - The Jam House for a good gig
JB
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I think John's comments are ludacris.
Did he not see Wales diving all over every ruck and the fact Ref. Kelvin Deaker didn't have a clue? The breakdown's in this game were refereed incredibly poorly and although it was a brilliant game, it would have been better had teams been allowed to get more quick ball because the opposition were being punished for slowing it down. Ireland, like every other nations, do use hands in the rucks, but you must realise they, like the All Blacks, have an extraordinarily good back row which turns over a lot of ball legitimately.
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3 tries to nil speaks volumes of only one thing, and it sums up the game. Ireland are better at cheating than Wales are. That was the only difference between the two teams. Actually technically I suppose the difference between the 2 teams was that the referee failed to sin bin Irish players for professional fouls on the odd occasion he actually noticed them doing it, like hauling down a driving maul 2 yards from the line to prevent an almost certain try and twice lying on the ball (the same player both times too!) after a line break to give your defence time to organise. That's without even mentioning Easterby on Czekaj which should have been at least a penalty and a sin binning for Easterby if not a penalty try. Wales were too naive (or afraid of getting caught perhaps) to commit similar offences and it's why Ireland scored 3 tries to nil.
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To stress once again what I said in comment #2 and to elaborate a bit. I really don't think there is a huge problem in rucks at the moment. It's just that the way it works, especially under SH interpretations, it favours the rougher, tougher back rows, which is as it should be.
Rucks generally happend like this.
Tackle occurs. Ball carrier goes to ground. Next man up approaches the breakdown. If he is on the team in possession, he bridges the ball, if he is on the defending team, he tries to poach the ball. Due to the modern interpretation of the 'holding on on the ground' rule, this means that if the first person to the breakdown is a defender, he's going to have to wrestle for the ball. The big difference in interpretation between refs seems to me to concern how long the man on the deck is allowed to hang onto the ball and obstruct a defender getting it.
Still and all, when it comes down to it, the second man to the breakdown is going to try to clear the first man out, which means that he's going to just throw himself at the guy trying to pick the ball (or the guy bridging the ball). Thus, whichever way you look at it, the important variable is the roughness and toughness of the first guy there compared to the second guy there. If you're trying to pick the ball and haven't got it yet by the time the second man arrives, a rougher tougher back row is just going to blow you out of it. Believe me, as an open-side flanker, you get some ferocious hits when trying to poach ball. The people that get complained about are complained about because they're tough little stumpy hard-nuts who will hang onto that ball like a badger hangs onto a leg, despite multiple 20 stone plus men hurling themselves at him.
The problem arises when you've got a man on the ground hanging onto the ball and a defender standing over him wrestling for it who gets knocked off his feet by the opposition. The ball ends up stuck between two guys who are both off their feet and both of them are breaking the rules, so neither of them are going to let go. In the NH, most of the refs call out "ruck" or "hands off" at this stage and whichever orientation the ball happens to have, it comes out that way. In the SH, they seem to just let them fight it out a bit more - whoever happens to be on the wrong side just loses the wrestling match eventually. Both routes are defensible in terms of the rules (since the ball is generally not on the ground in either case), and it is just a matter of interpretation.
All teams do this type of thing, the reason that the ABs, and now ireland, get singled out is just because they have rough tough players like McCaw, Collins, Leamy and O'Driscoll who can hang tough and wrestle for it while taking heaps of punishment. They have great body position, great upper body strength and are crazily single-minded and oblivious to pain. To me, that's one of the things that the game should be lauding (and it does, for all the criticism they get, all rugby fans admire people who can do this stuff).
When it comes down to it, the packs that are good at retaining ball are good at it because they are tough enough and strong enough to physically remove the bodies trying to hang onto the ball. For example, England are, on their day, extremely good at retaining possession and this is because they have a huge pack that can blow defenders back behind the tackle line.
I mean rucks aren't scrums. You don't just all bind up and push. You have to have technique about it. You grab arms and legs and physically disable the opponents from wrestling for the ball when your team has it - that's the whole skill of the upfront tussle.
No matter how you referee it, the breakdown is always going to be a physical confrontation - a mass wrestling match and the rougher tougher (although not necessarily bigger) guys are going to win. The only alternative is to have some sort of league style restart and I wouldn't go for that. The huge phsyical battles at the breakdown are one of the things that makes union so enjoyable.
Plus, it should be remembered that the game which had the most competition at the breakdown over the weekend also had by far the highest standard of open, flowing rugby, and was by far the best match and one of the reasons for this was, in my opinion, the epic struggle at the breakdown which was just incredibly physical and committed and was a genuine contest. I was incredibly impressed with the Welsh, who I hadn't rated and hope that they will continue to play with such panache. Much of the criticism that they received was unwaranted. Apart from Luscombe, I thought they all did well. In retrospect, I Ireland didn't play that badly, apart from a bit of wayward kicking, and Wales were much better than both the South African and Australian performances against Ireland. People say Ireland played badly, I just think Wales didn't let them play, by hanging onto the ball and running into good field position for the first 3/4 of the game. Wales competed well at the breakdown until they tired near the end and it realy bodes well for the team, considering that they won't be facing such high-quality sides every week. For the first time in a long time, they've got a pack that can give them near parity with the big boys in the structured phases, and they still seem to have the offloading ability when it gets loose.
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Why is it ever necessary to here the like of "Hands off 7" ? The players know the rules. They don't need the ref to tell them the rules. If they break the rules, penalise them, hard and early, to discourage persistent infringement.
The argument to be lenient to allow the game to flow, preventing constant stoppages doesnt hold water: if the first offence is punished severely, the offence wont recur, and the game will flow whilst still being played within the rules.
I live in NZ. You should here the whingeing on the innumerable talk-back radio shows. Critcising the ref is the commentators and punter's favourite pastime, even when the "right" team won!
Absolutely. They are the masters and always have been. McKaw is only the latest of a long line. They are clever cheats. They play the ref. (Apparently Ireland did too - No coverage here in NZ). It's one of the many rugby skills the All Blacks excel at.
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Re Kiwi interloper 93:
鈥淗ave a look - they are winning their games by an average of 25+ points against ALL opposition"
Come in no. 93, your time is fast coming up. We have your number (93) and you don't like it one bit. Having said that, thanks for the lesson on how to 鈥渆xtend鈥 the rules when it comes to the crunch. Thanks mate.
Was it not last June when we checked ye lot out (on your own patch) and scared the excrement out of ye. Twice. Remember? We would have taken ye to the edge if ye had had the guts to play us in the Autumn. Ye didn鈥檛. Why was that? Kentucky-fried job.
I have watched Kiwi Sports TV and your ignorance and collective arrogance will be your downfall. 鈥淭he 6-N 鈥渋s a 2nd tier tournament鈥. Bless.
1st test v AB鈥檚:
Watch the gobshite - who is on the near-right of the commentator.
Make a sentence out of: 鈥渉aunt鈥 鈥 words鈥 鈥渃ome鈥 and 鈥渂ack to you鈥 鈥 out of that one.
2nd test v AB鈥檚:
鈥淚t was a leveling factor in the 鈥渢ist鈥
鈥淭he Irish were as strong as us in the last 鈥渢in鈥 minutes 鈥 which was disappointing鈥
The blind arrogance/ignorance - is unbelievable 鈥 and it鈥檚 nation-wide.
Is it me? It must be me. These guys make Guscott look like Ghandi!
(Not you 93, you are grand man) I LOVE Ghandi 鈥 not because he brought down an Empire from a cell 鈥 but because he had an Irish accent.
Crap rugby player though. Shaped a wee bit like Stringer.
Isaac Boss is the answer EOS. Why can鈥檛 you see this?
Nice team though鈥 mate, shame about the mental inner-weakness when push-comes-to-shove. Hope I didn't spoil your dreams No 93. That, my Kiwi friend - would be awful. It would haunt ME.
It will be a grand WC final, against our soul mates - the Aussies.
England, are our main opposition in the 6-N (not in the World Cup) 鈥 this time around.
It is crucial that England have a strong team. Crucial to the NH - as a whole.
They are OUR World Champions! JW is not Carter, but he has more influence on his team than Carter does. Wait for the abuse from the SH on that one. I want a percentage BEEB.
Meanwhile, back at the 6-N 鈥 Shaggy is back! France will give it their all in Corker on Sunday, but it won鈥檛 be enough. It will only be then, that this AB ignorance will recede. Then we will really have to step it up. I hope they are not reading this.
What with the 鈥渆limint鈥 of surprise -and all that.
No 93. "Go the Irish - only NH team worth watching"
I regret everything I said now.
Sorry mate.
Just a bit of banter BEEB, just a bit of harmless banter.
It is milk-mild compared to every other blog on the web - NH and SH.
Leinster-man - protecting the 6-N and the NH 鈥 in the Netherlands.
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Regarding the comments made over the potential difference in Nth / Sth hemisphere refereeing, it is not as simple. Actually quite confusing. Did anyone watch the Sth hemisphere refs during this weeks Super 14's? They pinged anyone for getting hands anywhere near the ball at all times. They were very strict.
This would suggest that when they head North they ref to a different set of standards. At least Mr Deacon did. If it had been a Super 14's game I reckon there would have been 4-5 cards minimum.
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Competing for the ball at the breakdown is a fundamental aspect of the game. Without a contest at ruck time we would be playing rugby league. The third man to the ruck can handle the ball and also the ireland tacklers were getting back to their feet and trying to ruck the ball back on their own side which is also legal.
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Winning side's have always been accused of cheating.
When Australia beat New Zealand I know that a lot of Kiwis who accuse most falsely the Australian team of cheating.
Hands in the ruck, the ref did this or didn't do that or missed this or that, none of this is new the accusations of cheating are as old as the game itself, in some cases the accusations are fair, but in a good majority of cases its just loyal fans finding a outlet to vent their frustrations
Ireland were playing the game to the letter of the law they won, congratulate them and hope your team learns the lessons from the loss and improve for next weeks game.
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Commentor 65 about the difference between NH and SH refs has a point. Part of the problem was that the ref was a Kiwi and its clear from watching the super 12 that SH refs tend not to penalise sides for hands in the ruck provided they don't hold on too long.
Having said that no ref enforces every law and part of international rugby is working out what the ref will let you get away with. As a (bitterly disappointed)Welsh fan I have to say fair dos to Ireland for playing the ref more intelligently than we did.
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Wales lost, not because of a bad referee but becasue Ireland were the better team on the day, yes some of his decisions were poor, but looking at the game a second time, We (Wales) were also guilty at times of handling on the floor.
The game has improved so much over the last few years that only a very small margin exists between the top sides (New Zealand apart) so any edge is a winning edge. Being Welsh, I congratulate Ireland on a very good victory, and wish them well for A Grand Slam season, for us (Wales) become street wise to go with the natural flair and ability that scares the daylights out of the opposition. And with 80,000 armchair referee's watching, the one in the middle with the whistle has no chance at all! Bless him!
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I think the main point is handling in the rucks as opposed to being on your feet when the ball carrier is tackled and before a 3rd person joins - who has control of the ball and therefore who should let go - in the Ireland Wales game, there was a lot of tackling where the tackler managed to grab the ball before a 3rd person arrived, so you could say the other side were holding on and should be penalised for this.
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Look...players know their hands should not be in the ruck, so if they're prepared to put them there to kill/slow ball, then let players tread/ruck (not stamp!) on them I reckon. At least everyone knows where they stand, and if players want to cheat, then they know they run the risk of a bit of digit damage.
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The real problem is players handling *each other* in the rucks.
Rugby players should take a lesson from footballers, and confine such activities to seedy hotels and lay-byes.
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all u english complaining saying ireland are slowing ball down at rucks and mauls are already running scared and are looking for excuses.....wait till ye cum to croke park well shee who slows down ball play then....wilko will be nailed....end of
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all u english complaining saying ireland are slowing ball down at rucks and mauls are already running scared and are looking for excuses.....wait till ye cum to croke park well shee who slows down ball play then....wilko will be nailed....end of
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Firstly I think it is right to say that he best teams will get away with what they are allowed to.
Ireland's ability to threaten from first and second phase meant that the inerpretation of tackle area by the referee suited them on Sunday.
With a lack of pace on the wings, Wales needed multiple phases and quick recycling to score tries, which they were not permitted to do.
It was also interesting to note that certain Irish players, especially one of the Locks "appeared" to have specific roles in terms of slowing down ball.
Ireland won though, an unfortunaley that is all that really matters.
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As a die hard Welshman through and through i feel that i have to be honest and criticise Our approach on the day.
The only way to deal with players putting hands on the ball/slowing up possession is to clear him out of the ruck quickly and efficiently, we failed to do this instead players were whinging to the ref who was obviously quite happy with his interpretation of what was going on.
Too often today we see players particularly scrum halves whining like old women to the ref, rugby is a physical game therefore get stuck in and do something about it.
New Zealand we all say are masters at slowing up the ball, but look at them when they are attacking the ball comes back very quickly why? because they make sure that you the opposition have no time to get your hands on the ball, when we all say take a leaf out of their book then i say yes but look at all aspects of their play and copy it after all they are the best side in the world and it is not just based on slowing the opposition's possession.
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Third man to the breakdown, coming in from the side, coming through the gate ? hands off the ball, holding on to the ball, dragging the scrumhalf in, tackler rolling away, tackler on his feet, ruck formed, not formed, ruck the ball (not the player),behind the back foot? balls out / not out etc. etc. the ref has to check all of this at 100 miles an hour, easy for all of us to critisise whist relaxing on our sofa's looking at the game with the luxury of all these camera angles - can it not be made simple ?
As long as refs remain inconsistant with their interpretations of these laws,and the method in which they talk to the players (tony spreadbury is a particulary good ref at clearly defining the stages of the rucks) then players will exploit these areas. Defences are so tight these days it is difficult to win a game without being able to play on these 'interpretations' of the game.
I find it particularly frustrating that NZ (McCaw Especially) is admired for his speed to the breakdown and his ability to 'hold the ball up' and the irish are slated for exhibiting a similar tact !
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The Aussies and Kiwis have been doing this for years nad have got away with being "on the fringe of legality". The same went for running between the ruck and the scrum half to slow the ball down. They were also allowed as were the Springboks to "lift" in domestic competitions and it was at their instigation that "boosting" was made legal, making lineouts almost a non-contest. When will the powers that be stop giving in to the Southern Hemisphere and keep things on an even keel?
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Biggest problem with this law is that the lack of clarity in interpretation and inconsistencies in refereeing - so ably shown by other contributors - can decide matches. A penalty awarded or not could and sometimes does constitute the winning points. I wish refs would distinguish between deliberate rule-breaking and the sometimes very technical and indeed arguable but essentially harmless nature of some infringements. Also how is a side supposed to get to the ball at a breakdown when there is a pile of bodies in the way and the side with the ball are time-wasting? Going in from the side is the only way!
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I started playing rugby at quite a young age and am 19, my first coach, who is now in his 50s taught us from the age of around 11 to do what you can get away with as long as its not dangerous, and players at all levels I have witnessed, from local clubfriendlies to international matches on tv seem to do the same. It is something that is hard to catch by the ref who has a myriad of things to watch and consider, I do not see a solution currently, without radically changing the laws, that will not slow the game down to the speed of american football. It is very frustrating to play against, but when your team do it as well and it goes your way too, its very difficult to not ignore the illegality of it.
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114# Totally agree with you John. If players are going to have their hands on the floor, or they're lying on the wrong side then they deserve to be rucked out of the game. I'm by no means a dirty player, but as long as I've played rucking has been an important part of the game
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Problem is the yellow card not being used for what it is intended for. Why do ref's insist on warning players for a blatant professional foul. The All Blacks get away with it probably more than anyone else, but the problem is more consistency with the way the ref's handle it.
To cut down on it, simply yellow card anyone found doing it on the first offence and BE CONSISTENT!! Ref's are so totally inconsistent in their decisions, you can't blame the Irish or anyone else for competing for the ball. If they are doing it illegally then it is a professional foul and a yellow card.
Ireland were fortunate in that the ref decided to use repeated warnings without the use of the card, Doncha O'Callaghan in particular should of been in the bin.
The All Blacks wouldn't be so keen to be "streetwise" if it was properly penalised. McCaw can't play from the bin so you pays your money, you take your chances....players like NZ and Ireland and the rest (England included) will blatantly take 3 points over 7 and kill possession....the penalty needs to be a yellow card. simple!!
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In my experience most serious injuries at the scrum occur after engagement while front rows 'grapple' with each other and twist and turn the scrummage. When front rows were simply allowed to make contact and bind, occasionally there would be a clash of heads but only very occasionally leading to injury/cuts.
Asking for the ball 'down the middle' is farcical. How often is the ball heeled against the head?
The scrum is being increasingly depowered to the point of asking why do we persist in this part of the game?
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wilkowho? Post 128. I think you'll find that the original author is a well known scot!
But thanks for revealing your chip.
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Ever since professionalism and the game was converted into entertainment, the laws of the game have been manipulated to allow the attacking side all advantage. Tackled players can hold onto the ball until happy to place it to their advantage while defending players are allowed scant opportunity to regain possession.
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Both side were guilty of slow down the ball at the breakdown. I'd go so far as to say that every successful team in the world is doing the same. The Welsh and the Irish would be fools to not try to get away with it. The ref allowed what he allowed.
The issue I have with his managing of the game was the constant repeated warnings, particularly to the Irish, without recourse to the sin-bin. The collapse of a driving maul a meter from the try-line called for either a yellow-card or a penalty-try. Equally, the tackle on the Welsh winger off the ball chasing a grubber with the try-line beckoning should also have earned at least a penalty, if not another yellow. Both these missed calls changed the final score-line radically.
Having said all that, the Irish tries were absolute beauties, coming from sustained pressure, individual and team brilliance. I haven't seen as good a 6N game in ages. Roll on next weekend!
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Depends It all comes down to whose refereeing the game.In the southern hemisphere refs want to the game to flow quicker,therefore slowing the ball down is more likely to be punished.In the north,refs appear to be more concerned with rule of thumb and more pedantic.
Its not cheating just different interpretations.
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