成人论坛

"Few would argue that it was not an important moment in the history of Britain"

Maybe so, but I would say the Act of Union was an even more important moment, given that it brought the nation of Britain into existence. And yet that anniversary, in January of this year, was pointedly ignored by the 成人论坛.

Why would that be, I wonder?

Much has been said that this 'celebration' of the passing of an act by the British government to end slavery has a lot to do with ending modern day slavery such as child bonded labour in India. However what is remarkable about all the media coverage is the total absence of any mention of the fact that the passing of the act to end slavery of Africans was also the starting point of slavery by a different name i.e Indentured or bonded labour which still exists today.

The British played a huge roll in substituting African slaves with indentured/bonded labour from India. Britain continued to benefit economically after the abolition of slavery act by using 'slave labour' under a different name. That is why there are people of Indian origin in countries which were in some way connected to the British Empire all round the world. The building of the railways such as the one connecting Mombasa in Kenya through to Lake Victoria was build by indentured labourers from North West India under very harsh conditiond. Many did not survive to return to India. Similarly there are many decendents of Indian indentured labourers who worked on the plantations in the West Indies and were never able to 'earn' their return passage to India. The people of Indian origin in Fiji are another example.

The use of indentured labour from India by the British is well documented. See:

1. Indentured Labour in the British Empire 1834-1920. Routledge (ISBN 10 070992321X; ISBN 13 9780709923213).

2
3.

The siginificant involvement of the British in replacment of old type of slavery with a new type of slave labour (under the name of indentured or bonded labour)should at least be acknowledged by the 成人论坛 in its coverage of this year's 'celebrations'.

Your coverage of slavery has been very deceiving & has painted a picture that England abolished slavery & the reason why it was abolished also has been lost in your interpretation I hope when slavery is studued in your education system they will tell the truth and not try and compare the torture & murder of millions with todays slaves.Remember all anglo american black people today are still branded by their name which was given to them by there slave masters, there language which was eradicated from them There faith which was forced on them
Who really 'abolished' the slave trade and slavery ?
There is a huge amount of confusion about 2007 and
its relation to 1807. Its almost as if people are being
brainwashed to believe something that is patently
not true.

First we should make it very clear that the abolition of
slavery did not take place in 1807. 1807 was merely
the
British legal abolition of their trade in human beings
across the Atlantic. Many people are going around
talking about how slavery was abolished by the
British in 1807 and isn鈥檛 that wonderful . Well that is
simply not true.

As for the focus on Mr Wilberforce, what were those
millions of Africans doing over the centuries -chilling
out in the crib drinking Red Stripe, slamming
dominoes
in the rum shop, going to raves ??? Did they just
jump
on those ships and enjoy the 'cruise' ? Who were the
real abolitionists ?

鈥淎frican freedom fighters involved in a relentless
number of uprisings leading to the deaths of
thousands of slavers were the first to
form 鈥榓bolitionist鈥� movements that fought to
eradicate enslavement and stop the trafficking of
Africans throughout their sphere of influence. In
1791, as a direct result of African insurrections
against European enslavers, Haiti was the first
country
in the Caribbean to end African enslavement.
Meanwhile Denmark, as Lord Gifford highlighted in
the
House of Lords in 1996, was the first European nation
to instigate the abolition of trafficking of African
people although this was limited to the Madeira. In
1794, the French National Convention abolished
slavery in all its territories although this law was
repealed by Napoleon in 1802. Up until this date the
British had rejected all calls for abolition.鈥�

The British did not get around to abolishing slavery
itself until 1838 but even then there was a catch -

鈥淏ritain continued to play an active role in the Maafa
after 1807. After the passing of the 1807 act the
attacks against enslaved Africans by British slavers
increased in their ferocity. It was not until 1833 that
Britain passed the Abolition of Slavery Act and 1838
when it abolished the patronising and
dehumanising 鈥渁pprenticeship鈥� scheme for formerly
enslaved Africans and replaced it with colonisation;
the process of enslaving whole nations of people in
their own land rather than kidnapping people from
their land and enslaving them in foreign territory.鈥�

鈥� The true injustice of this situation is highlighted by
the fact that whilst the British government passed
the 1833 Abolition of Slavery Act, which proclaimed
an end to British slavery, the British created a
system of forced labour called 鈥榓pprenticeship鈥� for
enslaved Africans. This insulting process ultimately
helped to fund the 拢20 million compensation (拢1.4
billion when converted in current monetary terms)
paid not to enslaved Africans and their families but to
British slavers.

This moral impropriety affected all of
the UK鈥檚 major institutions with even the Church
implicated when the Bishop of Exeter received over
拢12,000 pounds for the six hundred enslaved Africans
his estate held in captivity.鈥�

So when people start mentioning reparations and
brainwashing it is worth considering these points
which are only a few of many.

What tripe!
I saw the report about the Indian boy on 成人论坛 television.

"So what would have been more honourable? To not report an illegal practice that enslaves many children or to report on it and cause a change in a child's life that leaves him with an uncertain future?"

All slaves have uncertain futures...once they are freed. What happened to 成人论坛's moral compass, the one which condemns the torture of Al Qaeda terrorists in GITMO to extract information about WMD attacks being planned in American cities? Cat got your tongue 成人论坛? Where is the moral outrage you so vehemently displayed at the invasion of Iraq to overthrow the mass murderer Saddam Hussein when this violation of international law comes to light? Where are those 成人论坛 reporters now? Where are those MPs like George Halloway? Who wants to bet at least some of them are in London's fashionable silk shops spending thousands of pounds to buy the product of the boy's labor for which he was paid nothing never dreaming to pay an extra twelve pounds to pay off the debt he himself did not incur but for which he was indentured for life? How is it possible NOT to have contempt for 成人论坛 if you have even the slightest shred of conscience at all? Leave him to continue to be a slave for the rest of his life by being silent about the criminals who imprison him? Perhaps those in 成人论坛 who think so should spend a couple of his 12 hour days at his loom. Conspiracy to aid and abet crimes against humanity. If there were such a charge, 成人论坛 should be in the defendant's dock at the ICC. 成人论坛 has no right to condemn anyone. Besides, that is not its job to begin with. Yes the boy's life has changed as the story showed, changed for the better by being in school where he belongs. How about a follow-up crusade to free the rest of them 成人论坛 or are you afraid you will eventually be thrown out of India the way you were thrown out of Zimbabwe? Do you think the Indian government is any less ruthless or protective of its corruption? Why not leave the dealing with the world's most violent criminals like Al Qaeda, the Palestinian Authority, and Iran's government to the US, British, and Isreali governments and go find some of these small time criminals on your own? Do something worthwhile for a change.

I think Martin Rowson's cartoon in the Guardian this past week makes the point better than I ever could. It emphasises that saying 'sorry' for slavery, while welcome, is easier than addressing the issues of poverty pay in developing countries and appalling conditions for cockle-pickers from China in the UK.

By all means educate people about the abolition of slavery 200 years ago, but we also need more teaching of African history generally. Both its tribal background, the colonial period and right up to the struggle against apartheid in South Africa, and the state of modern day Zimbabwe.

By all means go and see the film 'Amazing Grace', but make sure you also see 'The Last King Of Scotland' and 'Catch a Fire', the excellent new film by Phillip Noyce to get a wider picture of "man's inhumanity to man".

There is a great (tabloid?) danger that the institutional enslavement of millions - ending two centuries ago - is being compared directly with child labour still extant.

I watched the recent coverage of the child's case and saw that it was to some degree an 'underground' type of abuse, whereas the enslavement and transportation of whole populations was the 'crime against humanity' technically ended in the UK 200 years ago. That was perpetrated by governments and largely supported by Christian 'ownership' of the people brought here. The modern-day case in Asia is important, but is not on the scale of the historical abuse.

Having said that, there is no purpose in a modern-day population making apologies to modern-day descendents that are eight generations on from the crime! That is carrying retentiveness too far! There should be unanimous condemnation of the era that ended then - that is certain. More importantly, there must be unanimity in the knowledge that such theft of human beings must never happen again. Ever!

The situation of child labour can be unearthed if there is a will of governments to do so. Abolition of slavery in the UK was a quantum leap! The two issues don't compare.

I do not envy anyone who has to make a decision on whether to make or broadcast a report on a sensitive issue, and slavery is unquestionably a sensitive issue. What's more, such issues will turn even the most timid and quiet of people into a verbal lion.

Should the news be broadcast under such conditions? It is still news and the 成人论坛 shows news. That should be sufficient for anyone. However, there is another side - if an issue is that sensitive and that provocative, it is more important that it be covered, not less, though extra care needs to be taken to not seek to provoke resentment (which achieves nothing) but to provoke thought and discussion.

Notice I said not to seek to provoke resentment. On any uncomfortable issue, resentment and hostility is inevitable. Don't run away from it, but don't feed it either.

On to the matter of slavery. It still exists in the world and (although illegal) it still exists in Britain. If I recall correctly, British police now provide all kinds of witness protections and amnesties to slaves who escape from human traffickers and slave-staffed operations.

Slavery from Africa may no longer exist, and we can probably draw inspiration from those who worked hard to destroy that branch of such a perverted industry, but one branch is just one part of this malignant tree that still exists. From the standpoint of confronting our attitudes, such news is vital.

Then there is the historical perspective. Our culture - any culture - is shaped by the past. You lose the past, you lose the culture. It's very simple. Actively working to remember the good, the bad and the downright ugly is what keeps that culture alive. Or did you think it just chance or for gory amusement that myths, legends, rhymes and festivals in Britain are entirely sufficient to teach the major events of the past 1,500 years, possibly 2,500?

If you want the British to remain British, if you want immigrants to understand what being British means - and why, then remembering how we got here (and why) is the single-most important thing anyone can do.

The slave trade was wrong. Completely wrong. However, it boils my blood to hear anyone apologise on my behalf.

I was born in 1981. How dare anyone speak on my behalf? I was in no way involved in the slave trade; nor did I benefit from it. Clearly it was wrong, but to blame the current generation is almost as stupid as compensating the descendants of slavery.

I honestly don't see what all this deeply simplistic self-flagellation from the 'hideously white' 成人论坛 will possibly solve. Is it going to stop the seemingly perpetual atrocities in many parts of Africa today, more often than not carried out for tribal reasons by so-called governments or countrymen of the victims? Will it offer much-needed opportunities to young black males on deprived inner London estates to give them a hope in hell of steering clear of gang culture? Or is it simply going to pour fuel on old hatreds, and resurrect out-of-date stereotypes from an era long gone and one which cannot and should not be judged against a modern moral framework?

By all means, commemorate the 200-year anniversary as any other historical event (although I share the concern of some black commentators that far too much historical backslapping seems to be being bestowed on the white abolitionists, and not enough credit given to the impact of slave resistance) and highlight the worldwide injustices of modern forms of 'slavery' - of which we should all be made aware. But as per usual, the 成人论坛 seems to be taking its own rather condescending moral line, which is once again very close to the official position of the Blair government, and in doing so attempting to skew the agenda - in this case towards garnering support for some form of official apology and financial reparations, an outcome which (as many have pointed out, on HYS and elsewhere) borders on the ridiculous when you consider all the groups and nationalities who could consider themselves 'wronged' or who've suffered aggression throughout human history. As a red-headed Nordic type, no doubt I should be able to sue the French (who invaded after the Vikings) but then, by that logic the native Britons could seek compensation from me, and so it goes on. Please draw a line, preferably somewhere this side of the completely ridiculous.

Still, I suppose we should thank the 成人论坛 editors etc who've decided that this topic deserves Auntie's standard saturation coverage over a period of several weeks - at least it's given us all a temporary respite from the familiar Beeb staples of child obesity, dog obesity, man-made climate change, CO2 emissions, Iraq and oh yes, did I happen to mention obesity? In the post-Hutton era, the 成人论坛 is becoming more of a propaganda organisation with every day that goes by, letting Blair's spin doctors dictate the news agenda, toeing the Government line on the big issues and diverting our attention from many others with ever greater levels of meaningless fluff (the entire Breakfast programme for one thing). It's a deeply depressing situation for someone who believes that public broadcasting should exist to offer some sort of thinking alternative to the commercial mainstream.

"Not been universally popular"? Be honest, it's been almost universally unpopular with the general public. Probably because we object to the subtext that we should apologize for what we didn't do.

Regarding the Indian kid. Why not report, and and financially remunerate him/his family - 拢1,000?

I thought there were huge problems with the 成人论坛's coverage of this event; as if the 成人论坛 had taken leave of its senses and had a Diana moment.

The event commemorated was the bicentenary of the Abolition of the Slave Trade Act and yet the output of the 成人论坛 was slanted towards slavery itself and how awful the British were for ever doing it.

It's certainly true: we were awful for participating in the slave trade. But the crucial thing is we noticed that fact long before any other major power did.

After British abolition, we persuaded Portugal and Spain to end the slave trade in their colonies (we paid them) and took military action against countries who refused. It was a shame the 成人论坛 chose not to educate us on these facts and instead focused on how awful we are.

I was in America a few years ago during their Martin Luther King Day; they were effectively celebrating the fact they abandoned racial segregation forty years ago!

If they can celebrate such a modest achievement, why can't the 成人论坛 let us celebrate one of our country's achievements without spiking it?

I would have liked to have seen more balance between the realities of the slave trade and the accomplishment of our country in ending it.

Judging by your post, other people would have liked this balance too.

Your reporting on the slavery issue demonstrates yet again that you follow the narrowest of narrow agendas. Why, for example, does the 成人论坛 steer so carefully clear of slavery, past and present, practiced by Muslims?

Well, if you can't or wont open the debate because of your enslavement to PC the bloggers will do it for you and you will become irrelevant. That'll be about time.

I agree with your critics.
Your actions may be responsible for creating more hardship in the boys/his family's life.

While the subject is informative it is also half-hearted. Half-steps at best. Im tempted to reiterate most hardships are directly a result of past imperialism-but you've probably heard it all be4.

You, not you personally,-and most journalists lack creativity. With all your resources you still fail to satisfy the masses. Ironic how most of the Non-western world chooses it's third world media for truthful and COMPLETE reporting. Case in point, Al-Jazeera-The 成人论坛(CNN) of the Arabs. But you prob already knew i'd use that one.

You could have done it without using Identifing details. And if you couldn't, even an amateur wannabe journalist could have found a way to get the point and info across with compromising another's situation.

It seems, you don't really care about the child or his nation or even the story. Was it an ego thing?...good luck with the award.

i listened to a good bit of your end-of-slavery coverage and i found it very important. I am disgusted by people who feel they "understand" everything about slavery by noting that slavery was not invented by the West. They show no comprehension of either their own purported morality or of social processes--such as how the institution changed when the slave trade became big business and the slaves essentially import-commodities that could be cheaply and easily replaced.
Those who believe there is 'nothing to apologise for' similarly fail to note what portion of their country's own wealth was generated by the slave trade and do not realise the importance of recognising the continuity of a society even if none of us now living was involved in something as pernicious as the slave trade.
I also think the discussion of present day slavery & bonded labour was essential.

The case of bonded child labour in India today has parallels with that of those born of slave parents in the 18th and 19th century. It is inexcusable to allow 'an uncertain future of the family' to pass as justification for inaction or merely neutral comment. Bonded child labour is a form of entrapment, which we must not tolerate in a world where food and shelter should be plentiful and people such as Barclay's Bob Diamond are said to 'earn' 拢420,000 every week. The 成人论坛 should be putting such obscene inequalities to the forefront of it's coverage in this year rather than pussyfooting around and listening to the moans and grumblings of those ignorant enough to brush off our own sickening role in the slave trade as a dim memory best forgotten.

It is difficult to see value in paying reparations to descendants of slaves (do we know for certain who they are?) who never experienced their forefathers injustice. However, if an act of contrition is desired, providing opportunities (i.e. education, low-interest loans, etc.) to descendants who are in current financial/economic straits might fit the bill.
In response to the dilemma experienced by Damian's reporting of child labor in India, his intentions were honorable. Follow-up will help ensure the boy gets the needed help either from the Indian gov't and/or
from the kindness of readers like those who want to contribute...has a fund been established for the boy?

Its funny becuase in many ways the situation with slavery is the same as it is today.

Before as in your quote europe and the U.S merely cashed in on the already established trade in africa.

And today europeans and americans 'cash in' on the already established slave trade in these countries by the desire to buy cheap goods.

Not just sweat shops in india with complete slavery but just the exploitation of workers everywhere ie: chinese people making computer componants etc.

So the point is how is today any different? How are we any more guilty?

So effectively this is very like the drugs trade.

So who is more guilty? Those dealing the drugs? (third world slavery) or those desireing to purchase them giving them value? (westerners).

In short we should not apologise for anything.

This is a very emotive topic, I agree that Britain was wrong to be involved in the slave trade, I doubt anyone thinks differently.

However, issuing an apology does not serve any purpose, the UK is now a multi-cultural society, celebrating 200 years since the end of slavery is a good thing, it helps to bring attention to ongoing slavery, but that is where it should stop.

It is not acceptable to focus just on Britain's role in the slave trade, what about Arabs, Africans etc who also were involved, I see no balance in the 成人论坛 reporting about their actions.

To my mind, I find it ludicrous that people are asking for compensation, do we not already spend billions of pounds on investment and aid to Africa?.

The 成人论坛 is in a difficult position, however, it must try and be fair in it's reporting, it must accept that people do not wish to apologise for something that they had no involvement in.

I read the HYS about slavery and it is clear that although people are not proud of Britain's role, they are also not happy that our Government has apologised for the sins of our ancestors.

Living in the Netherlands, I can assure you that most of my colleagues view the UK as the least racist country in Europe, and also feel that the UK is the most Politically Correct country which they find amazing.

to long .. shorten it down!!!!!

I'm saying that an apology isn't relevant here, any more than the Danes should apologise for Viking raids. And as for a "white person" getting a headstart, my ancestors at that time were Scottish crofters on one side and poor Londoners on the other side - no-one handed any of the proceeds of that income to my family. If you want "compensation", sure, ask for more aid to go to Africa where people are still affected by the disastrous partition of colonies. But "compensation" to the black kids in the same class as me, simply for being black? I don't think so.

Dear Tiray,

Firstly, you have taken out of context my entire point, the editors blog is about apologising for something that happened 200 years ago.

I was not born then and neither were you, it is not for me to apologise for things done by people who I do not know & have no connection to.

For the record, I am Irish, so according to your view I should also be asking English people to apologise for what happened in Ireland, I do not because no-one is alive who is responsible.

I also do not because to mind, it would be a form of rascism to do so, if I did I would be classing all English people as being responsible which is obviously not true, therefore, to my mind for the Government to apologise is also wrong.

In my post, I make it very clear that the slave trade was wrong, and that it is something that nobody can take pride in, however, I would like you to explain to me where we draw the line?, do we draw the line at Italians for the Roman Empire?, Mongolian Empire?,Turkey for the Ottaman Empire?, Iran for the Persian Empire?, Egypt?, the list is endless yet all used slave labour?.

"21. At 03:59 AM on 08 Apr 2007, tiray wrote:

In terms of compensation, the verdicts still out! How better a way to say sorry? Didn't the jews get reparations? hmm.Think so."

The Jews who got reparations were the actual victims. If there are former slaves of the British Empire living today then I would agree that they should get compensation. However, they are long dead.

If you are going to try and make a comparassion at least compare like to like.

"Are you saying that an apology isn't important? Many stomachs were feed, and many a mansion was built on the backs of people that were bought and sold."

What people have been saying is that people generations away from the actual atrocities apologising to people also generations away from the victims is pointless. Are the nordic countries going to apologise to the British for the kidnapping and enslaving carried out by the Vikings? I haven't noticed the Italians apologising for the Roman slave trade, have you?

"In terms of compensation, the verdicts still out! How better a way to say sorry? Didn't the jews get reparations? hmm.Think so."

The reparations to the jews were to those actually personally affected, not generations after the event. The situation isn't comparable.

I agree with Maastricht and totally disagree with tiray. Apologising for something that happened 200 years ago is completely pointless and as for compensation the compensation culture we have today is bad enough but starting to compensate for historical injuries takes it to a new absurd level. If we follow this logic can I sue the British Government for the following?

1/ My ancestors having their property confiscated by the British Government in Ireland
2/ My ancestors in Ireland being left to starve during the potato famine in 1845
3/ My ancestors in Scotland being tortured and having their homes burned after the 1745 rebellion

Bad things happened in history. If those who perpetrated them are alive then by all means bring them to justice. If not learn the lessons and move on.