成人论坛

"Leighton Andrews is going nowhere until he is happy his job is done" - well,well yet again poor management and falling standards rewarded - perhaps there is a link with city bankers and politicians after all?

Betsan Any news on transport??

Oh dear. Carwyn is going to sink fast with these guys and gals...

Edwina Hart @ Business etc...not sure about that. And is Transport just pending or subsumed somewhere else?

Looks like a lot of chiefs, Betsan? Any reports on their salaries and expenses too?

Where are the MEPs? Is there a separate and unique site for them, their performance, salary and expenses - please advise - kind regards.

4. "And is Transport just pending or subsumed somewhere else?"

Let's just assume that, with rising fuel prices, falling incomes and a stagnant economy....no one's going anywhere fast in Wales.

The wales office calling it 'Welsh Assembly Government'. Defiance or just not read the memo yet?

It will be interesting to see what business leaders have to say about the appointment of a trade unionist to the post of business minister.

A very imortant and interesting one to watch will be former Plaid Cymru candidate Alun Davies as Agriculture Minister.

Urban Tredegar born, Politics degree, Environmentalist, Head of Public Affairs at the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority.

Not much experience or possibly understanding of Rural issues there I would have thought.

Especialy if past experiences of Labour Agriculteral Ministers are anything to go by.

Though I suppose Carwyn Jones himself had a good tenure there during his baptism of fire.

This leaves plenty of elbow room to bring in Ministers from a coalition partner without putting noses out of joint.

Mrs Hart's appointment will please business if she is successful in improving the performance of that part of the Welsh Government machine. Problems there for all to see since Rhodri's rather peremptory (where was the evidence?) subsuming of the good old WDA. And I am sure her close ally Andrew Davies will offer his good advice.....

I would have thought as the Government of Wales Act 2006 created the Executive seperation as Welsh Assembly Government who technically had no authority prior to that as they were only a committee of the NAfW, it would require a change of that part part of legislation to rename to Welsh Government, any thoughts?

Just to add to my 11 here is the relevent part of the Act

s45 Welsh Assembly Government.

(1)There is to be a Welsh Assembly Government, or Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, whose members are鈥�.
(a)the First Minister or Prif Weinidog (see sections 46 and 47),.
(b)the Welsh Ministers, or Gweinidogion Cymru, appointed under section 48,.
(c)the Counsel General to the Welsh Assembly Government or Cwnsler Cyffredinol i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru (see section 49) (referred to in this Act as 鈥渢he Counsel General鈥�), and.
(d)the Deputy Welsh Ministers or Dirprwy Weinidogion Cymru (see section 50)..
(2)In this Act and in any other enactment or instrument the First Minister and the Welsh Ministers appointed under section 48 are referred to collectively as the Welsh Ministers.

Re 11

"...it would require a change of that part part of legislation to rename to Welsh Government, any thoughts?"

John Tyler informed us this week that he no longer believes in the United Kingdom. But back in the days when he did, he would constantly 'remind' us that its constitution evolved organically, and I would say with changes to names such as Welsh Government that we can get on with it in exactly the same way.

#1 May you never be judged after months in a job trying to tackle problems that are decades old. Leightion Andrews has shown more energy and fight in the job than anyone else but he's got his work cut out.
#11 Does anyone care? A rose by any other name....

Fo @13

I am in agreement with you amere technicality, but you can see where the SoS is coming from as mentioned in 7 by Huw

Re 15

'...but you can see where the SoS is coming from as mentioned in 7 by Huw'

Yes: Buckinghamshire.

Of course I support the United Kingdom Fo, your 13.

Re 17

Impossible; you have said that you want the Scots to remove themselves from the Union as soon as possible.

Let us both hope then that they do so. Other exits will follow.

Not so Fo, what I wrote elsewhere is ...

So I would support the call for Scotland, shape up or ship out, you have become just a little too high maintenance, much like the daughter with aspirations beyond my wallet, it's time for you to look for another treasury Scotland, you've taken to much to often of my taxes.

Scotland is not the Union, the Union is a human condition where the majority in these isles wish to live together, separatists are hell bent on destroying what we have in political terms and they might achieve their aim north of the border, elsewhere we prefer to live together.

If you want to exit with them then cheerio, but in Wales the voice of the separatist elements are quiet, except with the Betsan's Blog megaphone and one or two extremist elements who blog their fantasies away to their hearts content. You could try for a partition in the North West, as with Scotland I would wish you well. Nationalism is a distraction with little substance.

Good Heavens our First Minister could never be accused of "laziness" if he can carry out his full responsibilities to a good order,particularly as his team look pretty weak. There could'nt be a company in world with the budget/scope of responsibility of WG,which would employ a bunch of third raters as we now have. Jane Hutt is surely in Finance post as reward for years of service,rather than financial brain. She should be Minister for Flat/Sensible shoes!!.

20. TellingmewhatIknowalready

Bit sexist that isn't it.

I'm surprised it got throught the Mods.

Re 19

No, I was referring to your very blunt and all too public comment made just a few days ago, along the lines of (I can't be bothered to look it up) - "the sooner the better."

#22 ... you are quite right, "the sooner the better", the nationalist voice is a constant irritation whether in Scotland, Wales, NI or any other region. It is not as if there is an ounce of innovative governance emanating from any Nat. Party.

Plaid are in disarray running around like headless chooks in a lurch to the far left, so are of no threat to the Union, it makes me a happy conservative.

Re 23

You said what you said, and you cannot deny it - even if you are now embarassed by it.

"Plaid are in disarray running around like headless chooks in a lurch to the far left..."

Is just empty, mindless rhetoric, I'm afraid, and somewhat surprising if you insist that you are now talkling from a position of strength. (How can you run round and round and still lurch to the left, by the way?!)

Yes, I've already said, Plaid had a bad night - but we all do in turn. I'm sorry to disappoint you John, but most Plaid people I've met since then are surprisingly upbeat about the future - new beginnings, new ideas, new campaigns, new structures, new leadership, new victories... I'm sorry John, but we're not frit in Plaid and we're not going away any time soon.

The 'nationalist voice' doesn't doesn't seem to be an irritation up in Scotland does it? And it's a fair bet that the Scottish nation took into account what kind of governance they had under the SNP over the last four years before casting their votes this time! So that's a very silly comment.

But we now know that you are in fact one of the SNP's biggest fans, as they are best placed to grant you your wish - to get rid of the Scots, and therefore break up the UK; and, as you put it, the sooner the better.

And by the way, John, you went very quiet over 'apostrophegate'!

I notice the anti Wales Assembly brigade have gone very quiet about getting rid of the Welsh Assembly since the referendum on extra powers.

Now that Plaid Cymru are out of Government (for the time being) who are they going to aim their cannons on now I wonder.

#25, I think you might be mixing anti-separatists with anti-Assembly, Plaid is last year, it's a genie squeezing back into its bottle, criticism, not cannon will be brought to bear on the work of the Welsh Assembly Government to be sure, this year just as any other.

#24, the question of an apostrophe depends upon ones spell-check, not the Plaid differential machine.

Your preferred political part is in disarray, just look at the words emanating from its on-line supporters, all good news to myself; I gave my vote to CJ on load to help keep out Ron Davies in Caerphilly it seems it wasn't really necessary, the flawed Plaid logic was just that, flawed, much like its road map that few in Wales have an appetite for.

There are still some of them out there, they are already complaining that Plaid gets too much attention. With nearly 20% of the vote Plaid is still a major force in Welsh politics, but they try to censor and bludgeon the 成人论坛 to discount them.

26. John Tyler

Come on John, spell check doesn't pick up on apostrophies.

I think you might be mixing anti-separatists with anti-Assembly

I must have been dreaming all this time then regarding those who wanted to get rid of the Assembly and give control back to Westminster.

Ah well, time to go back to my dreaming.

@Lyn David thomas

Plaid does get too much attention. all this talk about what happened and councillors having meetings at am's houses. What Happened is that we are in a recession still and we live in uncertain times. Necessary cuts are being made by the UK govt and Wales is down 7% on what money it can spend.
People voted carefully not ideologically or radically. This is why the Plaid vote went down. Plaid are still seen as an ideology. All this talk about Plaid needing to be more radical is claptrap cus we do not live in radical times. We live in careful times.

Re 26

Even more empty rhetoric from someone who is strangely defensive, even though he claims things are going his way!

Still, at least you now seem to be willing to admit that you called for the dismantling of the UK by getting rid of the troublesome Scots - "the sooner the better." The mask of inclusivity slipped, and how revealing it was...


"...the question of an apostrophe depends upon ones (sic) spell-check"

- you can never be sure with the extreme right whether they are employing irony and humour...or not!

Alf, if you use Word as your editing tool, the "Spelling % Grammar" button on the "Review" ribbon does in fact introduce an apostrophe when necessary. On the other hand is it "bands" or "band's" when referring to a music band. The Times yesterday printed "band's" whilst Word corrected it to "bands" (The Times Weekend).

Returning to Scotland, Fo's constitutional concern, for "troublesome Scots" read "troublesome any nationalist group", our UK should look at the issue of separation proposed by any disaffected group of British people, Plaid included, and as soon as possible ask through a referendum whether the UK should become Great Britain, and more importantly what exactly in geographic terms would make up our country.

If the British people as a whole vote to expel Scotland so be it, the constant toing and froing between independence and union by the Scots is a constitutional distraction. The whole question of independence of the regions has been driven by nationalists, times change, we can set the bar for expulsion County by County, ask the people of each county if separation is favoured, then put it to the whole British population to expel the Counties. Whether it is Scotland as a whole, or parts of it, or Wales or parts, or any other region, partition the land and let them go with borders. My personal guess is the majority in Wales would turn their back on separation, in Scotland, who cares, 65% of the English people would vote on its expulsion so let it go.

Following any referendum, central government funding needs equalising so that no one group of people have an advantage over another, as I have written before, there are no differences between any of the peoples of "Great Britain" therefore there is no need for different levels of funding, the structural or built environment is different, there are differing needs at differing times, a school needs replacing, the teachers and curriculum should be standard.

This whole ugly affair has come about because "government" is far too big, to intrusive in our lives, time for a 20th century John Stuart Mill.

Truly dire! Proven failures are allowed to remain at the top table! Further economic and social decline is guaranteed. The only questions surround how bad it can get before people finally see the light?

Re 31

Interesting. On the hoof comes to mind... but interesting, nevertheless. John Tyler clearly doesn't like the Scots ("who cares"!), which is telling. If the Scots want their independence, it will be their choice. The same goes for the Welsh nation. The county by county bit is utter nonsense, of course.

It is also interesting that John Tyler's whole philosophy is negative. He prefers to talk of expulsion as opposed to the will of peoples wishing and deciding to govern themselves. Very unlike JSM!

And,
"...is it "bands" or "band's" when referring to a music band"

- well, they are two different things! If you're talking plural, then, obviously, it's 'bands'.

John be honest for once, you are against government expenditure, your ideal state, as you made clear on your blog, would confine its self to defence, law and order and the judiciary. Every thing else would be provided by private organisations or charities. Thus there would be no state expenditure to equalise. No NHS, no state education and no funding on infrastructure. The position that you state as ideal means that anything you say on state funding of anything anywhere fairly meaningless.

#33, there is nothing to like or dislike, but it is not just a question for Scots, it is a question for all the peoples of Great Britain, independence has been a loud demand for years from north of the border, why would the remainder stand in the way, and it would be the voice of the people, all the people.

Partition is always an option, and if you look at the current political map of Wales, slice a 20 mile wide corridor along the southern coast to include Pembrokeshire and there is the potential for a new "Plaid Republic" where you could do whatever you wish to do.

Ridiculous? ... only because you could not achieve a majority wishing for independence, but might those East of Offa's Dyke decide otherwise for Wales? On the other hand your voice and the voice of your compatriots are in decline, CJ, now he is free from the Plaid dead-weight might be able to turn Wales around, with a little help from friends, that would be the end of nationalism for ever.

A letter in today's Sunday Times, page 26, a Mr Law of Dalbeattie Kirkcudbrightshire, the last paragraph ......

Our centuries-old marriage is over. do we want a spouse who is constantly threatening divorce? Holyrood should be invited to accept independence without further ado - and a costly referendum.

@35. John Tyler
"Partition is always an option,"

The typical comment of a Brit Nat. Do you never learn?

After the painful experience of Northern Ireland, in terms of the lives sacrificed in civil strife and the horrific costs involved in trying to achieve a solution, you are still prepared to risk the same scenario in splitting another counttry for your own narrow political ends? Shame on you.

Re the divorce of Scotland from the rest of the UK: as in any union, if one partner decides to leave, unfortuntely the other partner has little say in the matter. If the Scots therefore do decide to end the union, all the voting and shouting by the rest of the UK will not prevent them from doing so.

Calling me a "Brit Nat" is wrong, I am a Conservative who this year loaned his vote to the Labour Party to help keep the Plaid Cymru nationalist Ron Davies out of the Assembly.

The majority of people of Great Britain support the independence of Scotland, no-one is shouting the odds against the proposition, except possibly some Scots.

@38. John Tyler

I think you are being duplicitous. You deny being a Brit Nat yet you write (comment 17 on the "First Minister second time around" thread):

"when Scotland leaves the Union the Union Jack will just become our national flag, a visual representation of the British people, we will remain the British people, except possibly in the minds of the nationalist elements."

... my comment has nothing to do with nationalism, our national flag, the Union Jack, is the national flag of Great Britain, a symbol that is recognises our existence as a nation on the international stage.

I guess from your comment that considering oneself as one of the peoples of Great Britain makes one a nationalist, wrong.

I think you and yours have a very real problem, the rejection by the electorate of Wales at the last Assembly election, it's tough at the top, your party has started the slide into political history; the Labour Party, Liberal Democrats and Conservative Party in politics in Wales are aware of the dangers associated with nationalism, they also know nationalism can only be countered by making the population happy, not buying them off, making them happy, not so difficult particularly coming out of hard times.

@40. John Tyler

1. The first two paragraphs of the Wikipedia entry "British Nationalism" puts it quite succinctly. I quote:

"British nationalism is a form of nationalism that promotes the United Kingdom as a focus for national identity, specifically Britishness. In a broad sense it includes political and social movements, sentiment inspired by a love for British culture and history, and a sense of pride in being British. British nationalism is closely associated with British unionism and is characterised as a "powerful but ambivalent force in British politics", as an "inclusionary and civic form of nationalism, emphasising the union between England and Scotland", as well as "embracing strong native national identities" and being ethnically British.

British nationalism has broad support across the political spectrum in the United Kingdom; from the Euroscepticism of the centre-right United Kingdom Independence Party and far-right British National Party, to the principally centre-right Conservative Party, to the centrist to centre-left Liberal Democrats and the centre-left Labour Party. Politicians, such as British Prime Minister David Cameron of the Conservative Party and his direct predecessor Gordon Brown of the Labour Party, have sought to promote British nationalism as a progressive cause." End of quote.

And yet you deny you are a British Nationalist? If you wish to quibble, then perhaps you'd be more comfortable with the term "British Unionist"? No difference, as far as I'm concerned.

2. You say that Plaid Cymru "has started the slide into political history". A tad premature, perhaps. You will recall that the Conservatives were totally wiped out at the 1997 and 2001 Westminster elections in Wales, and yet bounced back to second spot in the elections in 2010. All your grandstanding will not change the fact that this is the nature of politics. There are both swings AND roundabouts in the fairground, and what goes around, comes around.

As others have pointed out, over 19% of votes cast in these latest Assembly elections does not indicate "rejection by the electorate of Wales". We'll wait; we aren't going away.

Re 35

A non-answer.

Re 40

And the nationalism John Tyler holds dear is the arrogant, we know better than you kind, that tried to rule the world for so long with lots of guns and other dangerous, expensive toys. I can agree with him that HIS kind of nationalism is dangerous. And now, to top it all, he talks of partition!!!

But just note his general exasperation that anyone could possibly take a view that is different to his! The Sots, for instance. He doesn't try to come back with an argument, just insults. Again, very unlike JSM.

#41 ... you wrote ... roundabouts in the fairground, and what goes around, comes around ...

... until of course the carousel horse breaks its fixing and is flung aside, much as Plaid ........

#42 ... I noticed you shouted "his", temper temper.

... a beer or two beckon so good night.

@43. John Tyler

Brewed in Blighty, I trust. Enjoy.

Re 43

Another non-answer, John? Enjoy your beers, it sounds like you need them. But you'll not find any real answers there either!

John so you voted Labour in the constituency and UKIP in the regional vote, if UKIP is not a British Nationalist party then I don't know what is. How can the Union flag be used if the Union no longer exists, not that it matters much as Wales has no representation in it anyway.

38. John Tyler

Calling me a "Brit Nat" is wrong, I am a Conservative who this year loaned his vote to the Labour Party to help keep the Plaid Cymru nationalist Ron Davies out of the Assembly.

Well I am sure your tory friends will be pleased to hear you deserted them in their hour of need.

Your disloyal Conservative vote didn't count for much did it Ron Davies lost by almost 5000 votes.

I wouldn't brag about it if I were you I am sure your friends will be well pleased with you. What area Association are you a part of again. Whew!

My loyalty to the party I support went to them on both counts.

Have the Labour Party contacted you yet to say thank you.

UKIP well the least said about them the better another wasted vote for you if that is whom you voted for.

#46 ... as I wrote before, the flag is representative of Great Britain, whether you or your political friends feel anything for it, is quite unimportant.

For the next five years it is the Labour Party without the Plaid millstone at the Assembly that is important.

Alf, Ron Davies is out, prior to the election it had been calculated that if the previous following was added to the previous Lindsay Whittle vote then the call would be close, it was prudence at play.

Politics is about choice .... never a waste.

46. At 19:54pm 15th May 2011, Lyn David Thomas wrote:

鈥淗ow can the Union flag be used if the Union no longer exists.....鈥�

A Flag can represent an historical fact. For example the Hawaiian Flag contains the Union Flag in the top left corner, because the islands used to belong to the UK.

It is plain from reading comments that a small number of contributors are very welsh nationalist as is their free right under the current laws of UK,however they and their kind are very small part of welsh people as a whole,particularly in the more populous regions in the almost totally anglicised areas. If the Scots wish to seperate themselves from UK,then OK,however when the full financial costs (including taking their part of UK Debt),and also loss current revenue funding from England is considered I dont think it will ever happen. I think the most likely is the english "backlash" at continual sniping by welsh/scots who some at least never seem to be thankful for benefits of being as part of Uk,which aint perfect,but where in the world IS?. This whole debate is'nt helped by 成人论坛 CYMRU,which in my humble opinion is absolutely useless,with it smain commentators in both political/rugby being pretty average,and thats being generous. Let us show our total "welshness" by WG offering to take over total funding/responsibility for S4C,however the full exposureof costs/viewing figures would create howls of protest by the english only speakers and the "gravy train" would quickly come to an end. One Billion Pounds over ten years and for what??. A soap opera and rugby on "red button" for 90% of welsh people.

40. John Tyler

my comment has nothing to do with nationalism, our national flag, the Union Jack, is the national flag of Great Britain, a symbol that is recognises our existence as a nation on the international stage.

The Union Flag is the official flag of the United Kingdom, there is no Great Britain any more.

It retains an official or semi-official status in some Commonwealth Realms, it is known as the Royal Union Flag in Canada. It is also used as an official flag in some of the smaller British overseas territories. The current design dates from the Union of Great Britain and Ireland in 1801.

We know what happened to Ireland not part of us anymore.

In your nation of Great Britain. The UK isn't a nation, it is an amalgamation of three national countries with their own national flags, and a Province.

Perhaps you should read this as to the definition of a nationalist.

I am afraid you do actually come into that category.

If I may be allowed to place these links on here





A member of a political party or group advocating national independence or strong national government.

In fact you are probably more of a nationalist than those you decry.

@51. TellingmewhatIknowalready

I like the bit where you say "under the current laws of UK". Are you planning on making membership or support of Plaid Cymru or the SNP illegal anytime soon? Do let us know.

That would make you not so much a British Nationalist, more like a National Socialist.

#52, alf, to increase the scope of your considerable knowledge ...



.. nationalist, me, I fell about laughing alf, I just enjoy being happy and prefer less government.

#53, before I go to work cerea, what right do you have labelling TellingmewhatIknowalready a "National Socialist", you in fact labelled him/her a Nazi in a sly way, not many call a Nazi by its other name.

Betsan's blog is no place for discourse when such abuse is tolerated .... it is a means to discourage debate.

Well the losers seem to have a lot to shout about - what an unpleasant bunch - why is aggression, and sheer nastiness, such a feature of Welsh Nationalism? - no wonder most Welsh people reject them.

However back to the theme of post;
Carwyn has to sort out the various devolved services and our seriously out of balance economy, presently still declining, and well behind the rest of the UK, in fact well behind almost all of Europe.

He also faces major budget cuts, and it doesn't matter who is in Government at Westminster, those cuts will still have to be made.
However for Welsh Labour its a political bonus, if things don't go well and Wales continues to decline, they can spin - "Its the Tory cuts" - they are short changing Wales.

It worked in the Assembly elections, the electorate didn't measure Labour on the mess they made of things over the last 12 years, they swallowed the "we'll protect you from Tory cuts" line- Carwyn is probably betting his job the same lie will work again in 4 years time.

However if he has any pride at all, he must be bitterly ashamed of what labour have done to our services and business over the last 12 years. - So he will want to improve things.
To do that he has to work within the budget constraints. reducing the 拢400Million annual costs of the Assembly must be a priority - losing two ministers is a major cost reduction and a step in the right direction.

Will the Ministers he has chosen be able to deliver for Wales - I'm sure we all have our own views, in some cases the track record is not good.
But our children's future depends on them so my best wishes go with them.

Lets hope he and his Government is successful.

54. John Tyler

I suppose we could go back and fore all day finding something to support our point of view.

Though there is one thing no one can dispute, the UK or Britain (meaning England) being Great. That is of course if they have ever been that.

All it has ever been is an international Bully and Thug.

It is only its own historians and Politicians that say it was ever great in the way they have manipulated their own history.

Now, remind me again how many millions of lives have been slaughtered and mutilated in the name of 'Great' Britain'.

How many of the ones who sent them to be slaughtered have lost their lives to achieve their so called 'greatness.

@55. John Tyler

Sly? Me?

Read what I wrote: any plans to make illegal the legitimate views of Plaid Cymru and the SNP (e.g. by not giving them space to operate in a democratic society or preventing them from trying to achieve their political ends peacefully and within the constraints of a consensual process) would place the perpetrators (and I don't think for one minute that TellingmewhatIknowalready has that power, or would even want to have it, in fact I use the Conditional) on a par with the Nazis.

Now, tell us truthfully, even you wish that Plaid Cymru and the SNP didn't exist, don't you?

53. What I said was the "under the current laws of UK",then people have freedom to express opinions,even advocating the break up of Uk,subject to people wishing to do so ina democratic manner. How you can extrapolate from that statement,that I am a national Socialist seems a bit extreme,however I have voted for UKIP,which again expresses political opinions,subject to current law.How on earth could I make membership of any political part "illegal",as law is basically decide by UK Parliament,or devolved bodies for limited purposes.55. John. Thanks for support,but tends to show what we are dealing with when it comes to welsh NATs on this blog. 56. A very good summary,and even though I did'nt vote for Carwyn Jones and his party,he is a decent man and wishes to best for people of wales,however I disagree with his "analysis" of how best to improve the current position of the far too many people,and as a grandfather,particularly the children who live in relative poverty,both in finanancial and aspirational terms in wales.In conclusion there are very many talented and interllectually capable people in wales,however we seem to be excluding many of them due to over-politicisation of many factors,particularyly education/health service in wales.

@56. West-Wales

Unpleasantness, aggression and sheer nastiness take many forms, one of which is the use of loaded words such as these. Sly and abuse are two more (Comment 55).

And no, I did not label TellingmewhatIknowalready a Nazi (Comment 55) or extrapolate that he was (Comment 59). See Comment 58.

59. TellingmewhatIknowalready

How many decades has it been that we have heard the same thing about getting rid of poverty, especially with children, going to create employment, get rid of unemployment, better health, better education.

All this has come from consecutive Labour and Conservative Governments at Westminster. Predominately Labour for over a century in Wales.

I think we can look around us and see things have got worse in all those areas and are going to get even worse as time goes on.



'Welsh Nats' didn't cause all this.

Unless of course you can find evidence they did.

59. Alf. Lets try and seperate the NATS from the real world. As I understand things that AIM of Plaid Cymru which is the political arm of welsh nationalism is to detach wales from UK,as it believes that a stand alone wales would be better able to provide good living standards for all its people. Well I fundamentally disagree with that analysis of seperation of wales and so do the vast majority of welsh people,and long may that continue.There is however another level to the policies of PC,in that it seems to wish to portray us as a downbeaten peoples,which have suffered from policies,eith er directly or indirectly carried out by both Labour and Conservative Goivernments,and now current coalition. Like everyone in Uk,we have benefitted from economic structure of UK which has to operate in world economy,however there are huge problems in any government providing sufficient wealth for all its people. The whole present structure of wales was built on industrialistion,and that provided great employment and relevant wealth for its people,however capitalist economies do have periodic "collapses" and everyone is affected and we cannot in wales exclude ourselves from facts of life. The current "poverty" is a shame,however if people want "wealth",they have to work for it,except those will illnesses/disabilities who cannot work,and need help which should be generous,however it is all on the basis of WORK. Why is London full of economic migrants from all over world,whilst many welsh people will not travel 200 miles to find quite well paid work?. Both of my children and scores of their friends have had to leave their homes for work in south east of england,because thats where growth is situated. Look at Cardiff with the benefit of huge public investment,which as a City now compares more that favourably with any english city,and is now considered for shoping better than Bath/Bristol,so there are some successes in wales,due to economic wealth of UK as a whole. Cardiff City/Swansea City trying to get into English Premier League,because its the wealthiest league in world and watched by Millions oe people throughout world,and all built upon SKY money,and not a socialist is sight.!!

62. TellingmewhatIknowalready

Firstly whether you and others like it or not Plaid Cymru and their supporters are a part of the real democratic world. It is you, it seems, who wishes they weren鈥檛. That I believe is undemocratic.

Why you keep on about Plaid Cymru鈥檚 aims about Independence is a mystery. It is not to anyone else, they have stated categorically for anyone who wishes to listen, that it is their eventual long term aim.

I will repeat 鈥檒ong term aim鈥�, this will not be achieved without the democratic will of all of the people within Wales. With a referendum.

If the people of Wales reject that idea, then it will never come about, but that will be up to them to decide, not Plaid Cymru and its supporters. They will just give them the opportunity. No matter how much you want those people to think otherwise with your little 鈥榗hestnut鈥�

The present structure as you say of Wales was built on industrialisation and provided wealth for its people.

Please tell me where that great wealth is, and if it is there, at what cost to the health of those wealthy workers and their families..

You say Capitalist economies have periodic collapses and every one is effected .

If that is so please go back to my previous comment and its link and click on it and see how much we are 鈥檃ll鈥� affected.



You have to work for wealth you say. Hmm, I worked for 35 years and I am still waiting for that wealth.

I was forced through physical ill health to finish work and put on benefits at the age of 50 with a youngish family who still needed my support.

Now because these Government鈥檚 and capitalist venture鈥檚 have reduced this country to abject poverty, I and many other鈥檚 are being classed as lazy scroungers and cheats and those lifeline benefits are going to be taken away from us. Just because we have the audacity to be chronically ill or disabled. I certainly didn鈥檛 ask to become this.

It seems that the only support we may have is in charity 鈥榝ood box鈥� distribution centres with the tacit support of the Government

Seeing as you鈥檙e bragging about your children and the scores of their friends who left Wales.

My two children decided to stay here in Wales. One is a Professional person and the other Edits his own magazine along with a couple of other ventures.

They are fortunate, thousands in Wale

63. Plainly it is impossible trying to "debate" with you as you seemling find it difficult to accept simple words. i was not "boasting" about my children,merely stating they had to move away from wales to find employment,as had many of their friends. As i've said people who are GENUINELY ill and sick need help,and should be given,however it cannot be ignored that there a thousands++ who are milking the system,and this is bound to affect the money available for genuine need. For the record my son is a insulin dependant diabetic,and has been since 10,and there is constant concern as to his well being,particularly as he is working in very stressful job,with family/mortgage etc etc. There is no pint arguing with you about "wealth",as you need to see real poverty,ie. third world to compare where we are in relation to world as a whole. The "incomes" of people depend in main on supply/demand,and I'm not sure how to unscramble the world to your satisfaction,except to say that most everything is now "global",and we have to take that into account.

64. TellingmewhatIkno

Sorry my comment seems to have been cut off some where in the middle of the end I shall finish it here.

They are fortunate, thousands in Wales are not so fortunate, as their circumstances and lack of education is holding them back along with the area they may be living in.

Don鈥檛 blame them, blame the Governments who have put them in this position and then have the cheek to con us into believing we are all in it together.

Believe that and you will believe anything. Which is what you seem to do.



In answer to you Genuinly ill and sick people it is they who are being victamized and discriminated against along with their Carers with the new benefit structers. Especialy with doing away with DLA which is not a benefit, but an allowance to help with the extra finance needed with those disabilities.

If you need further proof go on to Carers Direct webste or any disability group websites and see what is acctualy going on in this 21st century capatilist country today.

If there are thousands++ who you say are milking the system instead of listening to the Dail Maily and Government propagander I ask you in all honesty who are they. if you have the evidence of course.

In the words of Eirfyl ap Gwilym. Do your homework before you make unsubsantiated comments.

I notice you didn't comment on my other comments in the first half of the previous comment.

Re 64

"There is no pint (sic) arguing with you about "wealth",as you need to see real poverty,ie. third world to compare where we are in relation to world as a whole."

It's all very well moving the goalposts! Let me do the same then, and see how you react: Complain about the Welsh Government? You must be joking, have you seen how it is in Zimbabwe, Sierra Leone, North Korea...?!

And your thesis that the people of Wales enjoyed the fruits of their labour in a just way, in the past just as today, is scandalous, and would be laughed out of court by any half decent historian. Tellingme...must do better!