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Those nasty Engineers said the Bankers. Hahahaha.

"However it is a serious embarrassment to BAE that it is pleading guilty to criminal charges in Britain and America."

It always amazes me when terms like "embarrassment" are used in relation to items like this.

The concept of multi-billion global businesses having any emotional or moral compass just does not compute!

What is the efeect on the bottom line and is the outurn fiscally rewarding enough is the only paradigm for these people, they would have been looking at the marginal returns and cash flow on the Zyklon B deal in 1942.

Saying that, can anyone point me at stats relating to tax evasion in the British SME sector?

I'm researching an article on the "Self made Man and Working class Tories" and need some figures for the " Patriotism or Pocket?" section.

Isn't £250 Million pounds the same as one quarter of a Billion pounds ?

There must have been serious political shenanigans going on behind the scenes to have allowed the parties to agree to this !

There must have been a big political price for the UK effectively to pay the US Government one quarter of a Billion pounds, which even in government terms is significant.

Robert.
I keep on hearing people on the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ and elsewhere referring to Quantitative Easing (QE) and a new phenomenon invented by the Bank of England people.
When I was at LSE (early 1960's) we ere taught about 'Open Market Operations' which was defined as "The process by which the central bank buys or sells securities in the open market to control monetary growth or interest rates. By selling securities, the central bank absorbs excess money, whereas by buying securities it adds to the money supply." It was a strategy used by the Bank and had been going for years!
I don't see how this is in any way different from the so called 'new' QE. Can you help me?

I don't get it. Elliot Morley et al are being prosecuted for fiddling their MPs expenses a bit. Yet here we have blokes in BAE fiddling with millions, and they're not going to jail. Are the prisons places reserved for petty crooks only? What's the scoop here? When will the proper sentances be handed down?

It's not the engineers seasider It's the company directors probably the finance/sales directors and yes they should of been prosecuted. I just hope it hasn't damaged a good British employer. This country needs companies like this employing as many as possible and contributing to the economy. This is probably one of a few big exporters we have left and it now needs to get on and run its business correctly and win as much work for this country as possible.

So let get this straight, the UK has hardly any manufacturing left apart from killing machines makers and they are highly immoral in anything they do?

This is what happens when salesmen believe in what they are selling.
No doubt they used to work for banks and shortly will be again.

There will be more of this lurking about but too small to cause a fuss.

The UK government meanwhile will be hoping that the hubhub dies down before the election.

BAE has to operate in Arab countries where bribery is a common process. Why are they being prosecuted under USA and UK law? Surely these offences these offences occurred in Saudi Arabia and should properly be prosecuted in that country! Oh. perhaps not, the sentence would almost certainly be the biolent removal of various appendages in public!

The DOJ stuff is not strong - it's laughably hypocritical.

The arms business is riven with corruption - BAE's specific crime was beating a rival to the most coveted defense deal ever.
If you sell arms to corrupt regimes then there is little option unless you are ethical and refuse to deal - but then you get no business, not much good being ethical and bust.

Other companies can rely on their governments to strongarm key markets diplomatically into deals or provide 'military or other aid' provided it is used for specific products of course - the government does the bribing/blackmailing but no money changes hands to individuals directly so that's alright then, very ethical.

The trouble with this type of trade you never know who is working for the business and who is working for the government.

This is all a fuss about nothing , arms deals have always been set up to go through bribes, fixers, government officials, hangers on etc etc , if we play the moral deal rubbish constantly we lose the deal , note BAE is biggest manufacturing exporter , engineering employer, owns most high tech defence technology, and earns billions in overseas sales and tax revenues for this country. Serious embarrassment my foot ! US defence companies , have been repeatedly fined , charged, taken to court over similar, why are they not embarrassed because its a cost of doing business in a tough trade. Why is it British companies issues are always made to be more serious , more hysterical, more highlighted by the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ , sometimes it seems our premier media outlet only ever points out negative issues about the companies that despite murky dealings build the product and services that drive a first world high tech economy, the moral issues are there, but this companies products allow our soldiers to have a technological edge over most forces they face - Eurofighter, Astute submarines, Chalenger tanks the list goes on. Sense of perspective required , and lets face it are the politicians fining them , models of financial probity ???

Shouldn't BAE be made to give the UK government the same undertakings as it did to the US 'in relation to the probity of the way it conducts business.'?
Nah, let's not bother. Good earner innit.

Robert, I will avoid BAE if you do not mind.
I wasn't thinking of seeing Michael Moore's newest film - I aint bothered with any of his previous efforts (were just not good enough - in my opinion) and I love films. But your incite on the Culture Show - with Mark Kermode - last night ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳2 - was interesting. I am not sure that story - the "worlds financial crisis" can be told as it isn't over yet - and it wasn't just America was it? But it settled it. I will not be watching it.

So why can a US company fine a british one and why does the US get the biggest share of the fine? I really think that the government should investigate microsoft or apple for price fixing and fine them each £250 million.

Are these the same contracts that Blair intervened to stop them being investigated some years ago? Didn't he say that an investigation would not be in the UK's best interests? Something said about us being glad that BAE had got big contracts on a competitive basis without any underhand action?

Good work America on pushing for this.

Now for Halliburton right? Right?

What's that? You only want to screw British companies and don't care about perhaps the largest corporate corruption and bribery scandal in history which was organised on your own shores and backed by your own previous government?

Yeah, I thought so. Typical America, double standards throughout. The moral of this story is that corruption is only bad for the world, if you're not an American firm.

Really, this stinks, BAE played America at it's own game and won, America didn't like it and got revenge by playing dirty like this, it's as simple as that.

The arms trade is notoriously corrupt.

The other matter one needs to consider is ECD (Export Credit Guarantees) - here an arms company did a deal (corrupt or not), delivered the arms, but was not paid so went to the govenrment and the British taxpayer paid - good eh! Everyone 'eats'* and the taxpayer pays!

*(To 'Eat' is one of the preferred terms from gross corruption in many parts of the World - Petty corruption being 'Tea Money'.)

The big thief pays a fine, the little thief goes to jail...just ask the bankers. One must wonder when the public will have had enough of the different rules based on class and size of company. The clothes have changed but the Court still exist, not the royal court but the political and economic Court that has simply replaced the older one. Soon we will all be bowing when limos drive by. This page will be dealing with topics about whether the banker was too abusive of his canning of a youth that did not show approriate respect by being on the same sidewalk.

War equals big profits (always have!)

...ask Tony.

Global stock markets tumble on debt concerns


I can just feel another war coming on!

BAE, start preparing those brown envelopes fast.

Oh dear private enterprise wishes to manage the way the 'free market' operates - unheard of!

7. At 5:25pm on 05 Feb 2010, plamski wrote:
So let get this straight, the UK has hardly any manufacturing left apart from killing machines makers and they are highly immoral in anything they do?

Amen ! The justification has always been 'job's and the technological know-how benefits that comes from the research.
The moral aspect of it is always ignored. It's one of the few things that make me ashamed. i.e that my taxes support it.

They are very selective about who they choose to call stupid and who they call friends. Lloyds TSB is just such an example. Millions of shareholders in Lloyds were effectively relieved of most of their hard earned savings by what looked like an agreement between two men to allow a monopoly to be created (against all the nation's and the EU's rules on the subject) by taking over a dead duck bank (HBOS). Of course, the two men who helped pull the trigger had very few if any shares in the bank but thought it was a good ruse to save the Government's banking bacon. The stupid institutional shareholders went along with it - most owned shares in both banks - and also helped pull the trigger. They saved 48p of their HBOS bacon and lost almost three pounds of their LLoyds bacon. Some financial wizards were they.

Three rights issues in a year, the government stuck with 43% of a penny share, and now (apparently) it seems one of the two original men apparently involved might be offered a job advising the other on how to run the country. I have not seen this in print other than as a flash on Sky News earlier in the week. If they ever make a film of this disaster it will have to be made by the Coen Brothers.

As with all these things I suggest watching for appointments to the House of Lords in the not too distant future as a gesture of gratitude.

23. At 7:57pm on 05 Feb 2010, rvaucbns wrote:
7. At 5:25pm on 05 Feb 2010, plamski wrote:
So let get this straight, the UK has hardly any manufacturing left apart from killing machines makers and they are highly immoral in anything they do?

Amen ! The justification has always been 'job's and the technological know-how benefits that comes from the research.
The moral aspect of it is always ignored. It's one of the few things that make me ashamed. i.e that my taxes support it.

I love your very highly moralistic approach, accept that your taxes do not support a private company, unless it's a bank or has unions. Bae is the last major engineering exporter in the UK and your happy to kill that off, for the sake of an idealist view of the world. America would love for Bae not to exist so that Nothrupp, Lockheed, Raytheon or one of the other big America companies don’t have any foreign competition. I think that you will find the Saudis would have got those jet's but form America France or Russia (Try and fine Russia and see where that gets) and your taxes would have been much greater to support the unemployed during the 1980’s. Please remember manufacturing jobs in the midlands were disappearing.

So BAE makes a profit by what is regarded as normal business practice by most of the world, and they are fined.

The MPs steal our money by what is regarded as normal criminal practice by most of the world, and they are rewarded.

Something wrong somewhere.

There seems to be an implication that directors of BAE have been fiddling. Whether they or have not is not what is at issue in regards to the fines( and what on earth they are paying the americans a fine for beggers belief) The issue is alleged bribes paid to middle men the gain business for the company concerned. I recognise this is a moral issue but this is a business with few morals,certainly from the end users perspective. Middle men are emplyed to obtain the best kick backs possible whilst making the overal price not look out of kilter with other quotes for similar equipment. Do not for one moment kid yourself that the French,US and the other to numerous to mention arms manufactureres do not do exactly the same. Thats the way it ,either play the game or sit on the sidelines and watch your business disappear down the plug hole. In the UKs case taking approx 200,000 jobs with plus all the lovely tax they pay. Lets all get real here. When we can afford the high moral ideals it may be time to discuss how we re-employ 200,000 people and replace the tax they and their employers pay to HMRC.

Yes plamski this country has hardly any manufacturing industry left. Thats why we have barely scraped out of reccession(if we have). Killing machines to you defenders of the innocent to others. I've got no interest in that argument but it's too big to debate on here with my typing speed.

25. At 05:51am on 06 Feb 2010, irondoctorglennjones wrote:


23. At 7:57pm on 05 Feb 2010, rvaucbns wrote:
7. At 5:25pm on 05 Feb 2010, plamski wrote:
So let get this straight, the UK has hardly any manufacturing left apart from killing machines makers and they are highly immoral in anything they do?

Amen ! The justification has always been 'job's and the technological know-how benefits that comes from the research.
The moral aspect of it is always ignored. It's one of the few things that make me ashamed. i.e that my taxes support it.

I love your very highly moralistic approach, accept that your taxes do not support a private company, unless it's a bank or has unions. Bae is the last major engineering exporter in the UK and your happy to kill that off,

Yes it is a moralistic approach.
Killing machines vs jobs.
It's the export of death that I have a problem with. I would be quite happy to support every one of those jobs if it meant our own armed forces were properly equipped to defend the nation with state of the art equipment.
Are you certain our exports are not responsible for deaths of of our own soldiers ?
As for no support for BAE from the taxpayer. Wake up !

Let me get this right: BAE has admitted guilt in paying millions of dollars to companies that could have been used by those companies as bribes, and now BAE has paid $400 million to the US and UK as compensation and to forget about it! Isn't that just another bribe?

I wonder how many current MPs and current cabinet members have been on the BAE payroll during tis period.

I wonder if fear of exposure of their collaboration in this deception and fraud is the main reason why the pay-off and "drawing a line under the affair" has been so easy and casual to pull off.

Some years ago the MOD awarded a contract to BAE Systems to supply new NIMROD aircraft.This has been going on for years, what is the latest on this contract? How much is it costing and when will it be completed?

Robert:

I am very grateful that BAE did the RIGHT thing and accepted responsibility and, pays the correct fine for criminal offences.

(Dennis Junior)