成人论坛

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

The real question is: Are Daniel Hannan's views typical of the Tory party? David Cameron says NO - but can he prove it! I think not, because Daniel Hannan's views are Tory Party views and they have been for every. Winston Churchill, after all, tried to abolish the NHS when he came back to power in 1951. Mrs Thatcher proclaimed that there were too many hospital beds in London and closed them down and sold the sites off to her City friends.

It is David Cameron who is out of step with the Tory Party. (I believe him when he says he believes in the NHS.) He should ask himself if the Tory Party is one in which he can remain as it does not share his views of the NHS. Go on David join the Labour Party, the party that created the NHS, and heaven knows it needs a new leader!

Why can't you have a sensible debate on the future of healthcare instead of yet another programme of Tory bashing? Your increasingly desperate "Save Brown" Campaign is never going to work.

So you are going to have a "debate" between a Labour guy who disagrees with him & wants to say so loudly & a conservative who disagres with him & wants to loudly prove it. I wonder how that "debate" will come out ;-)

This is an example of how the 成人论坛 determine that all political discussion is over a very narrow range. If Hannan has ideas, which I understand mean drawing from Singapore's experience, we should be allowed to hear them. You should broadcast a genuine debate, using proper debating rules which have been worked out over centuries, between people who actually disagree over the future of the NHS.

I don't hold out much hope since a little free discussion might set an un-Beebish precedent.

I note the 成人论坛 yesterday referred to Stephen Hawking speaking in favour of the NHS. Now I don't think anybody could doubt that a debate involving him & Hannan would be orders of magnitude more popular than the normal Newsnight with politicians coming on to say nothing & interviewers asking their "have you stopped beating your wife" type questions. I strongly suspect Hannan would lose in that but that isn't really the point.

FUNNY YOU SHOULD MENTIOON CULTURE

Britain is now defined by its absence of culture - in the same way that all her taboos are 'inverse', promoting decline rather than protecting a humane ethos.

Unfortunately, now governance is in the hands of anerobes, light and air will be suppressed - it is Quatermass II all over again.

HANNAN THE DESTROYER

There is something odd about Hannan's Tory label. Like King Kong wearing a coloured wrist band.

He is an archetypal destroyer. Kali with knobs on. Rising, at the end of a world age, to shred hypocrites wherever they are found. He homes in on the magnetism of moral compasses and the gravitational pull of massive bank accounts, marmelising the owners. Beware hypocrites!

HANNAN THE DESROYER COMETH!

Hi,

Either Hannan is a fool or a knave but when he drops into the conversation 'you [we] have bad survival rates' what does he think the survival rate is of someone who is ill but cannot afford the treatment in America.

how many people die there because they lack healthcare, and why if our system is so bad is our life expectancy longer than in the US,

I dont want to make a cheap comment, (but I will), but in light of what we have being hearing in the US once Obama has reformed Healthcare, perhaps he could do something about their education system?

I do think that you would find more people in the Con Party than in other parties who do not believe in Univeral Healthcare or the NHS,

Hannan has done us a favour by reinforcing the position of the NHS, what may be the probelm in the future for it, and our nation is that our country might go bust?

However Tory policies will be more likely to harm the patient ie the Uk economy and as Mr Mason suggested last night one of the reasons behind the faster recovery in France and Germany is that there is MORE state intervention,

finally how has privatising cleaning services helped the NHS? Lower wages to enrich the owners of cleaning companies has cost people their lives,

best wishes

What does "culture" mean to the British.

My dictionary's definitions include:
'evidence of intellectual development(of arts, science, etc.,)in a human society.'

Seb Coe says "This new investment...(in the Cultural Olympiad) means we can move ahead to create exciting work which will enrich our Games, celebrating the UK鈥檚 cultural life and inspiring young people."

So the emphasis seems to be on the Games. Sport has little to do with intellectual development in arts or science, and I suspect it is another expensive way to flaunt the new diversity of this country's culture, rather than to show our heritage and indigenous culture.

As many generations of my ancestors were Thames Boatmen & Watermen, I will be going instead to the London Mayor's Festival next month to see something of our cultural past. One of the events will be of a rather nostalgic sporting nature, in which the few who have had the Thames tidal knowledge handed down to them will pit their strength and skills by rowing those huge Thames Barges, as was done in times gone by.

As for the Olympic Games, I expect the trainees being richly funded at present will be composed(as football)of an ethnically skewed character since physical stamina is the requirement rather than intellect in the arts or science. That huge sum of lottery money could best achieve the stated aim of 'inspiring young people' by investment into the creation of training in real, meaningful work for them.

What we have is a culture of surveillance and paranoia perpetrated by two bodies of anaerobic festering cancers of delusion - The Blair Brown Supremacy of lunacy and their PR delivery packages of rotten lies.

The NHS is only really meaningful to those who really benefit - consultants, managers, lazy GP's who cant even be bothered to instigate a decent waiting room; the drug companies who have their stinking filthy needles jabbed right up our arms along with the vile bankers bleeding us all to death for the money God delusion. See them all like an orgy of sex crazed slimy frogs dressed in sharp suits and dripping with greedy money sporn.


Gosh I must be feeling better.

Hi,

any Opinion polls underway for the Sundays....

(Inter)National Health Service

In the long-running arguments over State v Private enterprise on NN blogs, the NHS provides an interesting case history, worthy of full analysis as opposed to the current slanging match.

I moved between private and public sectors during my Work Study career; moving from a highly industrialised food factory I was initially appalled at the low productivity of a Metropolitan Borough. Enormous cost savings and efficiencies were made, helped at that time by the Prices & Incomes Board that imposed a Pay Pause on all employers,except where productivity improvements could be proved. As a result of workstudy based incentive bonus schemes, local authority efficiency and pay were improved, as was management.

Thatcher killed a lot of this off by privatisation - sacking many employees and giving their jobs to a French company. This government seems similarly hell bent on outsourcing employment to overseas companies, demonstrating one of the many disadvantages of our 'democratic' electoral system, which seeks public approval based on short-term vote-winning measures. A Prices & Incomes Board could be re- justified in the light of the current economic crisis.

I could go on about how banks should be forced by law to apply moving-average methods of bonus calculation instead of rewarding for short-term 'gains', but I have already indulged in enough narcissism whilst JJ is not on the scene (hope (s)he is not ill).

The NHS is said to be the largest state-run business in Europe; given an independant audit function with powers to review productivity (not just target setters) I would prefer to keep it that way, rather than allow the unacceptable face of private enterprise (marketing, vested interests and private greed)to take over. However, there is one argument in favour of some privatisation (excluding medical records): unlike the present government controlled NHS, a private company would never tolerate the degree of free-loading by those who have not paid national insurance contributions. With the huge influx of immigrants, health tourists and benefits cheats, this must be pushing the NHS into crisis and requiring ever greater amounts of public (tax-payer) funding.

Does anyone else think that Andy Burnham is looking rather smug?

Deffinately a clanger from the Tories though. They could turn is round though. If they turned this into a debate over NHS reform.

Our health system isn't the best in the world, and we need to spend more on it, and not just money. Real effort needs to be applied.

I note the glee with which the Beeb embraces this argument. At last a Tory has made a major booboo! You seem almost as relieved as wee Andy Burnham. It's pretty obvious that Barack Obama has no intention of trying to replicate our NHS - the ones he speaks of admiringly are the French or Canadian. Ours is by no means the example anyone wants to follow.The Hannan person always looked a bit swivel eyed even as he gave Gordon a right good ear bashing and he is an MEP- not usually treated with such reverence by anyone.The government are so chuffed it's sad and John Prescott should be put back in his box somewhere out of sight, please. That is of course when the 成人论坛 are not giving him spots on radio(play on a Sunday) and TV.

Watched for a bit, surprised by some questionable comments tonight but not by the usual suspects, have just turned off.

PS I think it's interesting to note that George Osborne's brother is a doctor while Gordon Brown's brothers are both in PR- one for EDF and the other for Glasgow City Council. Of course his wife was in PR too. What a shame that none of them have been able to 'make him over' a bit more successfully.

OLYMPIC ARTISTIC COMMENT - NOT JUST THE ORDINARY KIND

I don't think I have ever heard such 'global claptrap' as came from the 'arts on the sofa. I might as well be equally 'constructive' and say that it is most important that the Olympics do not become party-political because that would turn them into PARTY GAMES and SPOIL them.

Re: the crocheted lions for the Cultural Olympiad: 'Richard the Lionheart came from Nottingham'? Did I hear this claim correctly?

I wonder how much experience or knowledge of NHS waiting lists, Daniel Hannan has at his finger tips.

My brother had prostrate cancer in the north of England and received treatment almost straight away. My 96 year old mother, here in the south, was quickly seen by a specialist, after an eye examination revealed abnormally high pressure in one eye. I could give many more examples from an area where a high density of elderly people puts pressure on the NHS.

His unsupported claims on American TV are most disturbing.

I see that someone has got there before me - Richard the Lionheart as a lad from Nottingham is a new concept. Is it something to do with confusing Sherwood Forest (where Robin Hood sighed for R t L's return from the crusade) with Nottingham Forest? ...
Richard says: My mother made me a lion-heart ...
Another says: If I sent her the wool, would she crochet me one too?

HAS THE WHITE-OUT STARTED?

An judicious camera shot, today, contrasted the pale back of Obama's neck in conjunction with a truly dark kid who had come to 'interview' him. I read recently that, as USA becomes disaffected, Obama will change from 'black' to 'half-white'. A good start I'd say . . .

#18 Trust a cultural to get history wrong! ; )

Labours vote has collapsed to the point Camaron could announce tommorow and everyday until the day of the general election that they will make savage cuts in the NHS and the Tories would still win the next election.

The concept and birth of the NHS was resisted by one group only.. the Doctors. They feared for their pay levels diminishing as well as their professional status and this fear is now played out by the US medical profession. Most of the anger made agaist Obamas proposals is coming from those who have aways payed for their healthcare. Obama has created genuine fear amongst many that universal health care is going to dilute the service that they are used to. What Obama is trying to do, at least on paper is very noble but the reality is he has created an angry backlash - certainly unforeseen - and even from his own supporters, its the last thing he needs so early in his presidency. Its a pity the 成人论坛 slants this story only one way...but then the 成人论坛 has form for slanting its reports.

Dear Gavin, please continue to feign philistinism when confronted with 'arts' bureaucrat claptrap. Western culture went into irreversible decline when art became 'arts'...Vivienne Westwood (of all people) was quite right when she said a few years back that the visual arts had 'lost it'. The loss was greatly assisted by arts administrators around the world who realised that an unholy alliance between third rate conceptualism and public spaces and public funding could produce a heady mix which could appear challenging and yet really be the most dead, closed-shop academicism since the 19th century. The threat of genuinely challenging art could be completely neutered and their jobs were safe, I don't have a problem with the creators of crocheted lions. Does anyone remember the old Maoist phrase 'paper tiger' ? As in completely toothless.

McSHANE SAYS MANDELSON IS 'NATURAL No2' (Today Program)

I couldn't possibly comment. Another characterisation was "the nation's favourite uncle" - not sure about the baby sitting though.

I am finding that the 成人论坛 is increasingly "Brown's Broadcasting Corporation". You only showed a small clip from Hannan. You did not discuss the content of what Hannan said, which may have been right or wrong. You only focussed on how this would embarrass Cameron. Come on! If you are serious about the health issue then why do you not have a proper debate. Get an informed host. Get the experts in. Get the ministers in. Let them debate for 30 minutes and let people hear what they have to say. Get beyond the petty soundbites. But no! You can't be bothered. You just want to have a go at the tories. And you call this balance !

seems everyone has an internet warfare team these days?

..Israel鈥檚 foreign ministry is reported to be establishing a special undercover team of paid workers whose job it will be to surf the internet 24 hours a day spreading positive news about Israel.

鈥淥ur people will not say: 鈥楬ello, I am from the hasbara department of the Israeli foreign ministry and I want to tell you the following.鈥� Nor will they necessarily identify themselves as Israelis,鈥� he said. 鈥淭hey will speak as net-surfers and as citizens, and will write responses that will look personal but will be based on a prepared list of messages that the foreign ministry developed.鈥�


High on its list of target sites for the new project would be 成人论坛 Online and Arabic websites, he added. ....

A BIT OF BALANCE ON THE NEWSNIGHT FORUM? (#28 link)

Can't wait for postings by 'fidlerinthebasement' or 'ChosenChick'! Things could get a bit lively here. (:o)

Hi

I hope this posting is in accord with your house rules, and apologies if it isn't,

Daniel Hannan lists in his declaration of financial interests to the European Parliament in a public document on their website, dated 24th June 2009;

as being quote

'freelance writing and journalism'

ok,

Please could he tell us if he has being paid for his interviews in the US, and if so how much and was any other remmuneration involved?

again, I hope this is ok to post, I appreciate being able to leave comments and would not intend to break any of the rules with anything I posted,

To #28: bookhimdano

I wouldn't worry too much.

Maybe the only solution to paid propagandists is to keep pointing out those distortions and to repeatedly present facts. Here's hoping the general enthusiasm to expand human knowledge totally swamps individual efforts at disinformation and a reduction in knowledge.

What clearly marks them out is the continued one-note subject regardless of the subject of the thread,

the inability:
to remember that the last time they repeated the same thing it was disproved,
or reluctance to answer questions or interact,
to acknowledge facts that contradict their agenda,
to describe any of their background or relevant personal experience that might provide context for their views,
to reference any other web presence showing their views,

a lack of openness and sensitivity,

no interest in encouraging different perspectives,

an ability to re-write history,

lack of basic human qualities in style e.g very committee-like or like quoting from a rule book or lack of humour.

repeating like an advert,

motivated mainly by limited information or tribal behaviour,

have no interest in expanding human knowledge

There are probably more characteristics.

before the Brown knockers have a go and I have been one of them, tuition fees, Iraq, ten pence tax etc., don't get me going but we have witnessed in the last few days what life would really be like under shiney boy Dave with his backwoodsmen secure in their cages but they escape now and again and the MEP guy really told the truth as to Tory thinking on the NHS in other words, a nightmare scenario and back to the thirties and most of us like the Yanks with no adequate healthcare and would Dave care? Would he b.......cks

Hannan's comments were on Fox News, which is owned by Murdoch's NewsCorp which surprisingly is registered in Guernsey, and so avoids paying taxes in the country in which it operates.
Not only is FoxNews a joke as a news organisation ie, you don't get on it unless you conform to it's twisted sense of importance but that you don't believe that the rest of humanity really matters unless for their profit.
Our society today is extremely complex and depends by inherent interaction of disparate forces, we must work toward the provision of the most efficient health service possible for ALL. The NHS is not perfect, in fact it has many failings and because of our free press we know about them and for that we complain bitterly and since we are a democracy it is the one issue which sets the Labour and Conservatives against each other, fortunately not to destroy it but on how to improve it.

#33
inloressence
well said, and wisely
mimpromptu

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

How to improve Healthcare ?

I noticed the debate was more mud slinging than substance again , ok what do you expect from politicians I hear you say.
But actually I would like to hear the facts of the case and any new idea's tested in a factual debate , not mudslinging or scaremongering.

If I understand Mr Hannan's suggestions correctly, he thinks a Singapore system of healthcare would produce better results for patients , not surprising when you look at the WHO ranking of nations healthcare systems, Singapore's system came 6th and our NHS came in at no 18 (USA came 37th), but that was in the year 2000 and sadly the WHO does not produce these figures any more , probably because of complaints from member governments that it was political interference.

Singapore's healthcare system does not refuse healthcare because of the lack of personal money (poverty) , as Mr Hannan rightly states (I looked it up) , but it does put the patients (or families) in control of their own health budget. Which indeed may drive up standards , after all if a person thinks the service given to him or her or a family member was not good enough , they will refuse to pay for it ,just like private medical insurance companies do.
Even tho' I would agree with him that if the NHS was being setup today it would be more based on a Singapore type system rather than on a centralized bureaucratic system with such little accountability that we have today, I still think it's a leap too far from the system we have and are used too. I suspect the Americans will opt at some point to a more Singaporean type of system than our NHS system, they are more used to that type of system eg personal control of their services.

I think an alternative should be tried here , local democratic control over PCT's and SHA's, it's true it would not empower each individual patient like a Singapore type of system does, but the local elected rep in charge of providing health care would always be in fear of bad press because he or she had to be re-elected to keep their jobs and thus should be more responsive to individual patient needs in their area of responsibility , combine that with a right to recall and it should be more responsive than the system we have today.

So I do not agree with Mr Hannan's suggestions, but he might well know more than I with regard to EU competition rules and the ECJ rulings on healthcare provision, basically what's legally classed a commercial activity and what's legally classed as a social activity and it's bureaucratic effects and costs on healthcare in the UK. I did try and read some information on this , but I don't have the understanding of NHS procurement requirements or processes which I suspect few ordinary voters would do.

But I welcome a debate of the NHS , anything that can be suggested to make it better and more responsive to the individual patient needs I judge to be a good thing.


Additional -
Reading back this post reminds me of a WSC quote "This paper by its very length defends itself against the risk of being read.", I suspect as true today as it was 60 plus years ago.

ALL VERY WELL BUT (#33)

Britain is best at driving her people mad. This is done in the joint names of Mammon and GDP. The creeping madness of our people goes unassessed by our desperately incompetent ruling elite. As more go mad, indulging in compensatory nihilism, so it will throw a GREATER burden on the NHS - however wonderfully configured and funded. (Paradoxically, with an increasing percentage of the population deranged, deluded or worse, there will be no shortage of Blairs, Thatchers and Browns to strive for high office and make an even greater mess.)

Our 'leaders' understood that an empty bank must be filled with money, if it is not to die. But they have no conception of what might be the need of empty souls, born in ever increasing numbers in these soulless Isles; for what is needed is a return of intangible, indefinable factors, alien to Westminster governance. It is such factors that bring spiritual health, in turn yielding empty GP surgeries and hospitals, as if by magic.

Carry on weeping Britain.

#6, 23 and 33; you all touch on areas we discussed among ourselves this afternoon at backgammon and raki.

The British are fed an insular line on everything; I would most keenly enjoy a balanced, objective programme comparing health systems across the world, using the statistics as a starting point to get behind the numbers and derive some real understanding and increased knowledge of the issues. Instead we get this; clear propagandising from Fox, abetted by the MEP, turned into a meaningless, parochial war of soundbites by the 成人论坛, among others.

Humane, civilized and civilizing; that seems to be what any society needs to strive to be; and by all means debate the definition of terms, argue the case for one view or another, but please - spare us this puerile concoction of piffle that passes for news coverage of political issues.

The 成人论坛 and Newsnight, unlike Fox News, has been better than this - can they be better again?

We British need to understand that survey after survey, statistic after statistic, issue after issue, portray us as somewhat less than the "bee's knees and cat's pyjamas" that we seem to think we are - delusions our politicians and media collude in going along with to make us all "happy cabbages."

Those of us who don't, need to get out more, see the world, travel Europe, ask questions - and if you don't have the time/money/inclination - demand media services that do it for you.

There are something close to a million 18-24 year olds out of work in this country; why don't they go round Europe on their dole money, find some things out and come back and give the politicos it straight from the horse's mouth about what urgently needs to be done to prevent the steady slide of the UK into Third World status, while we all continue to sing "Rule Britannia".

Bottle's empty.

Israel illegally sells off refugees鈥� land?

...According to international law, Israel holds the property of more than four million Palestinian refugees in custodianship, until a final peace deal determines whether some or all of them will be allowed back to their 400-plus destroyed Palestinian villages or are compensated for their loss.

But last week, in a violation of international law and the refugees鈥� property rights that went unnoticed both inside Israel and abroad, Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister, forced through a revolutionary land reform.

The new law begins a process of creeping privatisation of much of Israel鈥檚 developed land, including refugee property, said Oren Yiftachel, a geographer at Ben Gurion University in Beersheva.



one might of thought such a brazen act against international law might have been covered? isn't silence sometimes complicity?

THEY CAN'T GET AWAY WITH IT - THEY DON'T ACCEPT JESUS AS LORD (#39)

As any fule kno, The One God could NOT have given the land of Israel to the Jews, as he would have used Jesus as agent. So the Palestinians can relax - that contract is void. The one true religion of Christianity makes it plain that God only works through Jesus (his son) so the Jews are nowhere in the power game. Why Middle East Envoy, and Prominent Christian, Anthony Blair did not make all this plain when he was there, I have no idea - a couple of days was more than enough time.

#38 + #6 @ #23 & #33
Where did you meet, Kashibeyaz, and can I join you next time?
I know I've had differences with Mr Singleton in the past but perhaps this would be a great opportunity to have it out with him once and for all. It looks like you, on your part, Kashibeyaz, have sorted out the issue of 'spoil party games' with Barrie(?) If you bring a ditty about me then I'll bring some ditties about you too.
mimpromptu

BUT WE LIKE IT 'WITHIN THE LIE' (#38)

Your powerful post would appear to add up to: 'living within the lie' kashibeyaz.
Perhaps the Jews took their cue from us! (#39) I still think it all boils down to intrinsic immaturity in Hom Sap. It takes courage of a high order to admit you are crap, and set about improvement. That sort of courage comes with maturity.

The money-scare was a small rip in the Foolknave Continuum. We could have used it as a portal to discovering all the other unrealities in our illusiverse, but chose to stuff it with imaginary money and to forget as fast as possible. And here we are.

Hi,

still awake, just being outside to see if 'that' killer Owl is in my neck of the woods, and thought I owuld check the hufddlines at the same time,

hot of the press, PA seem to be running this



Mr Cameron, you appear to be DOOMED, Sir

nighty night

hoooooooooooooooooooooot hooooooooooooooot

and from the North Korea Times today, without which no News round up is complete, -ever get the feeling DC, that your encirclement is taking GLOBAL PROPORTIONS!!



Gordon Brown has sought to capitalise on David Cameron's discomfort over the NHS row, branding the Tories "two faced".

Still no sight at present of the 'Killer Owl'

Morning!
Having watched Jeremy Paxman's 'Victorians' last night and having visited last Monday the Buckingham Palace (and specifically the special exhibition of the gifts from the Commonwealth Coutries received by the Queen throughout the years, I woke up with new verses which I'm going to quote below. I hope it's not too presumptuous of me to do so. They may also serve as an antidote to bubblegumtriffid's (formerly JJ?) rants.
We've had the mighty
How about hearty?

An Ode to Queen Elizabeth II

A Hearty Empire would be good to build
Where kindness and truth would stand for the guild.

I wonder if the Queen of this pleasant land
Would such a project approve?
To such an empire more and more could move!

Victoria's descendant, Queen Elizabeth II,
Would the Empress be
Of such an Empire to you and to me,
To him and to her
Wherever they are
Many of you becoming a star!

A star on the firmament shining bright and strong
Enlightening mankind to a hearty goal
Of kindness and freedom,
Truth and simple wisdom.

With no blood shed in the hearty process,
No killings, no unwarranted abuse.
/What is its use? What is its use?/

V&A's descendant would our Empress be
She's already been kind to you and to me.
So let's make the effort and build the Empire
Of Hearts, Truth, Wisdom, Kindness and Arts.

just in case, #45 was composed by mimpromptu and not by you

#45 & #46
from mimpromptu
I thought I might as well add to the above a couplet that sprang to my mind while walking across the Royal Mews:
Amazing gifts from the Commonwealth Countries
Some from the poor, some from the mighty.

from mimpromptu
What do you think Bloggers?
"I just lost my grandmother last year. I know what it's like to watch somebody you love, who's aging, deteriorate and have to struggle with that," an impassioned Obama told a crowd as he spoke of Madelyn Payne Dunham. He took issue with "the notion that somehow I ran for public office or members of Congress are in this so they can go around pulling the plug on grandma."
But he said that because there's no perfect solution to solving health care, opponents "start saying things like we want to set up death panels to pull the plug on grandma."
quoted by Liz Sodoti from Associated Press
Have a good day

WHAT IS OBAMA'S MANDATE? (#48)

Is he elected to oversee the wishes of the nation? Or is he elected to impress his own beliefs and values on America. Or is it all a fudge - as usual?

If a majority of Americans wanted the right to 'pull the plug on grandma' what then?

A new life starts at the whim of grandma and some bloke, with varying degrees of commitment, whom she has 'chosen' or perhaps found (unrecognised) in her bed in the morning. I am of the view that making a sentient being, without permission (de facto) - i.e. 'condemning to life' - is the ultimate sin, and requires a lifetime of service to repay. Absolute justice would give offspring the right to kill their 'creators' (a life for a life). That being a bit tricky, might it not be reasonable for offspring to have the right, at least, to pull the plug on grandma?

As I pointed out recently, 'life' is a manifestation of ARRANGEMENT of about 30 of the 90-odd stable elements of the universe. Life has no existence in its own right, such that some non-existent god can CONFER it on the stuff of his universe! It follows that when the arrangement gets 'deranged', life manifests badly, and it is time to pull the plug on grandma - if only to return all that useful matter, in the interests of recycling. (:o)

Hands up those who want five years of 'cabbage' rather than a friendly hand to pull the plug?

In case those posters who say they are "Muslims" are confused about the BNP in the IoS:

'Aman wearing Islamic dress and an Osama Bin Laden mask poked his head through wooden stocks and was pelted with sponges for his trouble, while a neighbouring stall did a roaring trade in golliwog mugs and Union flag badges. This was not your average summer fete. A bouncy castle and ice-cream van did little to lighten the mood at the British National Party's festival yesterday.'

They are against democracy but not for a Caliphate. They are for bouncy castles but against multi-racialism.

But what galls me about the media coverage is protesters - who probably outnumbered the BNP - had signs saying "The BNP is a Nazi Party".

How is it the media allows them to get away without saying what they are? If the Tories say they are for the NHS, but some hint they are not, then the truth worms its way out some how.

Any visitor to this page who is familiar with those posters who sometimes reveal their true allegiances knows that they will manage to praise Hitler and National Socialist ideals without ever saying they are Fascists or Nazis etc.

They signally fail to understand that genetic variation is greater within a race than between races and they protest they are "agnostic" on the Holocaust.

#49
Mr Singleton
I wasn't talking about terminally ill in a vegetative state and I'm sorry about your brother. There is a case for preagreed euthanasia as has been recently approved by the highest judges of the land. I can't help, however, thinking that there is also a strong case for a child"s and grandma's spontaneous laughter whatever their age.
Mimpromptu

#49 barriesingleton

"If a majority of Americans wanted the right to 'pull the plug on grandma' what then?"

I can see how that would preoccupy somebody who thinks well of Hitler and his National Socialist race agenda.

Von Bruun, American Friend of the BNP, awaiting trial for murder probably holds similar views.

I think the Baby P batterer, who reveres Hitler also and has an IQ of sixty may also sympathise.

#12 indignantindegene

"could go on about how banks should be forced by law to apply moving-average methods of bonus calculation instead of rewarding for short-term 'gains', but I have already indulged in enough narcissism whilst JJ is not on the scene (hope (s)he is not ill).

...

With the huge influx of immigrants, health tourists and benefits cheats, this must be pushing the NHS into crisis and requiring ever greater amounts of public (tax-payer) funding."

Well its the BNP conference this week so where would people who revere Hitler and National Socialism be? At a conference for a party that is NOT Nazi - or so they claim at the BNP - or at a conference for for a party that is "modern and progressive".

The Baby P batterer reveres Hitler and has an IQ of sixty. Bet he could crack that one.

#50. addendum
although most of the time you seem bitter, I don't think you have lost completely a belief in humanity. You woudn't be able, otherwise,to write such funny verses, I don't think.
mimpromptu

Hi,

just tried to email the beeb something, and came back, realise that it might be the spam filter or someone has blocked my emails at the 成人论坛,

if this has happened, given that I email sparingly and am always courteous I find this extremely rude,

but is perhaps what we might expect these days
ta!

#55 Bubblegumtriffid

Just got out of hospital and visited site.

The 成人论坛 email thing has been covered here before. The chances you will get a reply of any sort is extremely remote.

Jeremy Vine you get a automatic acknowledgment your email has been received, Newsnight etc you don't even get that.

By the way, last night I listened to George Galloway on Talksport who talked aobut the 成人论坛 coverage up to the Iraq war,

I have heard accounts relating to this which I would not post here, whether they are true or not I am not in a position to know but just to make a general comment which I hope accords with the rules on this blog; namely this -the truth always surfaces eventually one way or the other, if not by the front channels,

Hi King Celtic Lion,

I hope you are on the mend,

thank you for #56,

I was hurt in that my message came back to me, In the past there have no replies, now the door has being slammed shut,

If this is not the spam filter operating I just think it is an odd way for the National broadcaster -staffed by educated people, many from Oxbridge, to carry on,

It makes me wonder what these people learn at these places?

best wishes

Question for everyone
.....................

Hey, I do not want to criticise the 成人论坛 but rather see them as a means to an end. Its remarkable what can get onto the 成人论坛, recently a load of Hollywood actors towing a vehicle in the Highlands made it onto the 6pm News, couldnt believe it, so it gives me ope.

By the way I don't think my comments hurt them, given that the posts are probably rarely read,

but if this isn't to be an empty talking shop how can we convert our views into action, changes?

I am dismayed that what is an ideal opportunity to discuss new ideas to fund and manage the NHS has now descended into slanging attacks by the Labour lot on the Tories.

Wothout enough money it will descend into a lost cause so this is the right time for new ideas to be debated.

Without new ideas no matter how daft they may seem there will be nothing to debate. At least Hannon has woken people up to the fact that there is much wrong with the NHS that needs to be addressed.

Labour have tried and failed miserably so it is not surprising that they should attack the Tories in any way they can to avoid having to defend their own dismal record.

Breaking it up into manageable regions and taking the politics out would be a good start. It needs a long term solution not a five year electoral cycle.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

MOVING THE GHOUL POSTS (#51)

You got me there Madame Mim. I thought we were discussing Obama - and giving grandma a plug - had no idea you were referring to my brother (who has no issue, hence is no one's grandpa - no sin of commission!)

Game, set - and no match . . .

I'll get me coat.

Gang of 1 somewhere up above with the same old tune played.

Of all black Americans eligible to vote, 96% voted for Obama. Do you think the Afro American vote would have been so high if Obama was white? If Obama received high approval from Afro-Americans because he was black only, did they vote only because of Obama's race? Using your definition of racism, the afro-American voter who supported Obama would certainly be all racists. Can i suggest you study mans inclination towards tribalism. Its a human trait no law has shown any success in uprooting from the deep cultural makeup of man, only suppressing.

You also play loose and fast with facts to make your point; they only ever appear irrational. 'baby P murderer..low IQ' ect...okey, I'll go with that but...

Clinton, Blair, ect apparently smarter than the baby P killers but responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands!...your very selective indeed in who you hate, Maybe you watched and read too much on the Nazi genocide in your formative yrs..?

Maybe you will mature your way out of this odd behaviour...don't take that wrong, am just giving you genuine constructive evaluation and criticism.

This seems like a good idea to me, what does anyone else think?

ON THE EIGHTH DAY GOD MADE SCHOOL (#64)

Hi Lizzie. I have a gut feeling, not thought through, that this is all part of the myth that: 'on the 8th day God made School'.

I tend to the view that, just as conception should not occur without permission from the conceptee, education (in its true sense) is a matter for the one whose skills are being 'led out'. This must mean that ALL skills have equal weight in absolute terms. When 'media skills' are applied to the making of an achingly funny play or film, the good that that might do can outweigh a dodgy vaccine or a Mars mission.

As I write, an association is forming in my mind between 'scoring' the disciplines of schooling and running constituency 'primaries' so that the dozy voters can choose between three PRE-CHOSEN candidates. I would not be surprised if the same Machiavellian think-tank came up with both - though Big M would not own their pathetic attempts at cunning.

Birth should be for joy, nurture for contentment and structured-learning for life-skills. After that, society should run a smooth and viable course.

#53
You select a couple of quotes from my #12 blog and then proceed to make comments that are in no way related.

My suggestion to use a moving-average method of calculating bonuses for bankers arose from a concept I helped to introduce at a large London food factory way back in the 1950s, and since elsewhere, which smoothed short-term losses and gains in the pay of hundreds of workers. (JJ was mentioned as one seemingly opposed to posts that mention one's experience, which I think adds credibility to views expressed).

With regard to the second of my quotes, I am glad to use your technique - of using any excuse for repetition -

"With the huge influx of immigrants, health tourists and benefits cheats, this must be pushing the NHS into crisis and requiring ever greater amounts of public (tax-payer) funding."

You don't attempt to counter this fact, but simply rave on about your obsession with Hitler, baby P and IQ levels yet again.

My views on Hitler were expressed to you before: Great Britain (as it was then) 'celebrated' my 7th birthday by declaring war on Hitler and his evil intentions, and I also gave you my views on my patriotism, the Spitfire and the Union Jack in that previous response, which you seem to have ignored.

Alas, most of that patriotism has been driven out by this government, with the acquiescence of the other major political parties and organisations set up to fund and promote a false and damaging concept of 'equality' which has undermined our society and is set to make me and mine an ethnic minority in our own country.

My views were echoed by many of my ex-service colleagues who I met up with at The Union Jack Club last week. That is a club for those who serve or have served this country (not connected with BNP, which is the only other organisation that displays some pride in our national flag).

There was not one mention there of Hitler, the Nazis or the holocaust. However, the BNP was mentioned by many who feel they will have no option when it come to casting a vote for a party that stands up for their rights and for the things for which they have given service to country.

I suggest you keep up-to-date with facts, by regular visits to the website of migrationwatch.co.uk , an independant, non-political organisation chaired by Sir Andrew Green, a person with vast experience as a diplomat and concern at the degeneration of our society.

#65 Barrie When 'media skills' are applied to the making of an achingly funny play or film, the good that that might do can outweigh a dodgy vaccine or a Mars mission.

Very true! : )

running constituency 'primaries' so that the dozy voters can choose between three PRE-CHOSEN candidates

Very true! : (

Birth should be for joy, nurture for contentment and structured-learning for life-skills. After that, society should run a smooth and viable course.

Very true, and very beautifully and succintly put. : ) If only governments would stop interfering in telling us how we all have to live and what we must believe in! : (

#64/65 Sum are more equal than mothers

Although I have blogged cynically against 'media studies' as being the second choice amongst many in the dysfunctional comunity in which I reside (becoming a teenage mum or dad, being choice number one) and I am not one to go overboard to 'equality', there should not be a stigma on following whatever (perhaps limited) capacity one might have for acquiring skills and qualifications.

I have encouraged my teenage daughter in her interests in art and science so that, in the event that she becomes one of the 1 million forcast to be 'lost-to-work' in the future, she can develope the creative RH side of her brain and lead a fulfilling life, even if lived in a garret or studio apartment, or even a traditional at-home-with-the-kids mum? She has studied (although not mastered!)several orchestral instruments, including French horn, trumpet and now piano) and as a mixed-race she also shows an aptitude for languages, so emigrating will be another option.

I quite enjoyed my stint as a hod-carrier soon after I left school with nothing but a sense of adventure. Further Education was, fortunately, not so readily available in those days, so unlike several of my friends, it didn't lock me into a profession that I might otherwise have come to hate. In fact National Service was a godsend, providing at a more mature age, training not only in naming the 83 parts of the bren gun, but also a course on statistics, which fired me up to more ambitious heights.

There I go again, narcissism and acting as recruiting sergeant for National Service - my favourite solution to further education with no job prospects.

O.K. Stand Easy and Fall Out.

#66 Indignantindegene, I never read Go1s posts, I sometimes spot my name at the top but I still don't read them. I've tried telling her/him my views but without success, the person never replies, and just comes out with the same old prattle.

I agree with you Migrationwatch is an excellent site, full of information the Beeb never mention.

WHAT DO YOU GET IF YOU PUT INDIVIDUALS THROUGH INSTITUTIONS?

I suspect the answer is a mass of the unthinking, with a side (dis)order of neurotics - and worse. (See RD Laing on 'education' that drives you mad.)

It is now moderately well established that, genetic predispositions aside, we each build ourselves in a unique configuration. Regardless of that infinite variety, we are herded - ever younger - through the institutional and institutionalising sausage machine of 'stuff stuffing' - aka Education X 3.

With much due respect, IDG2, I doubt another layer of institutionalising (military training/service)is to the advantage of our already immature population. Ideally, we need a re-think of what is worthwhile overall; or just hand over to Mandy and 'do a Bilderberg' with him as supremo.

THE OLD BELIEF PLOY (#67)

Hi Lizzie - thanks. I enjoyed putting those thoughts together - however futile.

Our Tony used the belief ploy to great advantage. He would say: "disagree with me if you will - but it's wha' I believe." This was code for: "Push off, I have the power and I do what I like." Opinion you can question - belief comes from god.

But I actually wanted to say, if you missed it, the Ch4 program 'How do you know there's a god' was cathartic viewing. To hear all the specious cop-outs from top god-botherers, in quick succession, was better than inviting the Mormons in and explaining their error!

Archie Cant was best: he said he did not KNOW there is a god, but had the feeling he was in the presence of something GREATER THAN HE CAN CONCEIVE. (Savour that.) To me that is a direct hit for my theory that the CERTAINTY of believers resurges, in later life, from impressions laid down soon after birth - non verbal. Try the thought-experiment for yourself. What conclusions does a helpless baby draw about its situation and place in it? Match this with our later relationship to 'God'. QED

A COLLAGE OF BODY PARTS NEXT? (#70)

BULLSEYE! Cultural Olympics? Some culture, where the extremely-male win all events - men's events, and women's events! What else will our banana-brained (straight and bent) politicians marry up? My title presages the artistic side of high-tech asymmetrical war (where asymmetry comes home top us as it comes home to us . . .)

Anyone else for a bit of cultural asymmetry? Perhaps Damien will BLOW UP his next bovine? would that be ex-stallation art?

Back to the NHS...

I would suggest that the majority of the population of the UK are in favour of a free at the point of use health system.

I would further suggest that this, by inference, includes not having such things as 'copays' for treatment and caps on the cost of prescriptions.

Finally I would suggest that the majority are happy to continue paying by ability to pay as happens with national insurance.

Given these constraints it surely matter little through what channel people money goes into the system as the result will look very much like the NHS as seen by those that use it now and the only difference would be in the management of the system.

Whatever option is decided there will always be a need for managers/bureaucracy, whether it would all be within the health service as now, or divided between that and those that would need to be employed give some personal insurance scheme. The question is could the situation be significantly improved by going to another system compared to trying to make more efficient the system we have, especially if your option is to include more private companies who will all need to take some profit out of the pot?

My opinion, what little it is worth, is that health should go the same way as the independence granted to the Bank of England. The government should set some general targets and provide the money but specific tasks to implement the targets should not be up to the government. The one big tricky question is, if its not run by the government then would would be be run by? If the governments in change, people will complain about government interference, put a quango in change and people will complain about unelected people in change, put private companies in charge and people will complain about profits they would make.

#72 Hi Barrie, no I didn't watch the fairy tale prog on Channel4. I can't stand listening to all these people justifying war etc and forcing their beliefs on the general public. Is anyone in this country listening? Apart from our new citizens that is. It is nice as a child to believe there is this wonderful person that will fix everything, but past about 7 you begin to doubt it.

Sarah:

To the case, Daniel Hannan and his "eccentric" personality; that an accurate choice of words, he is someone that has a tendency to talk about things, that he could get himself out of trouble....

=Dennis Junior=

But is it turning out to be a kind of Millennium Dome of the head - expensive and wasteful?

It looks like it is a expensive and wasteful building that will be using only for the Olympics and that is pretty much...

=Dennis Junior=

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

I would like to complain in the strngest possible terms. This show was a farce.

Not a single question asked was relevant to current issues. It was a witchhunt deliberatly orchestrated by the 成人论坛.

The 成人论坛 totally changed the format of the show in order to enable abuse of Nick Griffin and the BNP.

Most of the questions asked were not even relevant to current BNP policies.

As such i expect the 成人论坛 to issue a public apology for its biased behaviour and to re run newnight where the rules of the show are actually adhered to.