成人论坛

TRICK QUESTION?

"Why have the French and German economies come out of recession and the economy of the UK has not?"

Have you asked Oliver James? Give him a few moments to become less than incandescent/incoherant and he will, I'm sure, tell you something to the effect that BLATCHERISM is about the few, and the many can go hang.

Why have the French and German economies come out of recession and the economy of the UK has not?

Maybe they were worse placed?

See, that's how it really works when you know how to spin them numbers!

But, even so, I am sure lessons are being learned as we speak:)

refusal to accept that [the perpetrator/s] did anything wrong

Strictly via accepting the 'two wrongs/higher standards' school of blog commentary, but if the thrust as suggested is the pursuit of remorse (which, often, when produced, seems to come out a tad insincere, yet seems to 'satisfy' many in the 'system' who simply like to hear the words without being too concerned about deeds, prior or subsequent. Especially with those higher up the command chain who might be more at fault), might one expect future reporting in other areas to be as dogged with its interviewees - with pictorial complements - in this regard for our delectation and satisfaction?

I presume she was a willing participant and hence knows, or was told what she was getting into via the edit suite. But it would be a pity if more savvy media manipulators were allowed to provide their own footage and/or decline similar 'opportunities'.

I don't think she is the finest example of humanity, but war is a dirty business and few sides come out well when the fog clears. Hence it might be of value to be provided with similar personal viewpoints, where extreme or dogmatic views from other protagonists are confronted with the consequences of their beliefs.

In the interests of balance, of course. Just... not so sure in such cases whether the interviewer and/or their employer might make it back to cut the award winning piece.... speaking of which...

It's hardly a 'revelation' that Arthur Ransome married Evgenia Shelepina, Trotsky's secretary, as his second wife. Christina Hardyment's book "Arthur Ransome and Captain Flint's Trunk", published first in 1984, tells how he rescued her from Moscow. She also has a story that Ransome played chess with Lenin and beat him (page 19).

Hi,

this is a genuine question for Mr Mason, if the UK is consistently in the red on the balance of payments, who is lending the money to us?,
could Newsnight put something on the website please showing who is lending us the money to pay the bills?

What about asking someone who survived Staffordshire Hospital to defend the NHS ? The ordinary person in the street, not one of the most important thinkers on earth who is bound to get suitable treatment in class ridden Britain. And Im certainly not saying that Hawking should not get the finest treatment.

From the top deck. No. 20.

For the second time (Is it really only the second occurrence?) a senior Reporter stroke Presenter of a premier league news programme admits aspects of the HMP expenses extravaganza have been well known to the media but which have not been openly reported!

In the first instance it was that the allowances abuses were well known to the media cognoscenti prior to the exclusive sic revelations in one particular broadsheet.

The latest disclosure is that expressed views of - millionaire - Mr Duncan, regarding HMP鈥檚 possible need to claim some form of means tested state benefit due to near workhouse bread-line existence, is also held and widespread amongst HMP鈥檚 of both main parties.

Aside from whether anyone has spotted Mr Duncan, or any other HMP, shopping regularly in high street charity shops - or even becoming a practicing Freegans - these admissions raise two very important questions:

Where does the loyalty of the media organisations actually lay, with those that are the subject of the media 鈥榗ontent鈥� or those that pay for and consume the produce?

If those that are elected to represent the GBP do not have the courage, or integrity, to speak the truth - as they see it - on such an important matter do these HMP鈥檚 have the credibility to continue to represent their constituencies?

Many key-kickers whom post here have questioned, and criticised, the 成人论坛 for it鈥檚 wimp-like attitude to biting the hand that feeds it for fear of ???? The reality is that if such issues as those referred to above are - maliciously or otherwise - kept from public scrutiny then politics in the UK will never evolve for the better.

Regarding HMP鈥檚 having differing opinions to express in public stroke private .....

If you willingly choose to stand in the spotlight ......

Speak as it is and take the heat!

Also ...

HMP鈥檚 shout loudly that the current and pending reforms of Westminster will deter people from standing at future elections despite the fact that the Conservatives have a in excess of a thousand Potential Prospective Parliamentary Candidates (PPPC鈥檚) and still want more!

Has anyone noticed that those (P)PPC鈥檚 on the tory side - that gain the attention of the media - are mostly PC, appear to shop at Next, appear to be fully apprenticed career Westminstarians, are getting younger by the day, spout enthusiastically the party line ( A good indicator that there is plenty of change to come there then! After all, where would their future path be if they dare question the status quo?) and, most obviously, telegenic?

This raises more very important issues:

Is Mr Cameron planning to control his party using old-fashioned paternal parenting skills or are we veering toward the final stage in the inevitable unveiling of the ......

鈥淣ew Conservatives鈥�.....

(Hereafter, by choice, abbreviated to 鈥淣ew Cons鈥�)

.... where, seemingly, style is even - and ever - more important than substance?

Or perhaps Mr C is, in attempting to drown the public face of the party with PYT鈥檚, just wanting to avoid comment that he is too young for the job?

Berlusconi springs to mind but for different reasons of course, this is the UK after all!

One has to hope that large numbers of Grass-root Tories (Hereafter known as 鈥淕鈥檔鈥橳鈥檚鈥� .) heard the early discussion in the piece in this morning鈥檚 Today programme where Norman Tebbit aired his own view on where he, Mr Tebbit, stands in the eyes of the New Cons.

Hmm! ..... Game birds .... an inexpensive option for supermarket chicken?

Norman, just how much is a pint of milk?

And, on top of all this, Mr Cameron has now 鈥渋ndicated鈥� that Mr Duncan will keep his job! So much for being a 鈥減rogressive party鈥� at the forefront of reform! ANo, he didn鈥檛 make a 鈥� .... bad mistake ....鈥� he lied!

And then there鈥檚 Ms Main ......


Oh yes .......

Interesting to see that - yet again - the French have taken the lead on much needed secular community integration initiatives stroke equality for muslim women i.e. .....

The Burqini.

A suggestion for a future NN slot perhaps?

And finally .....

Wootton Bassett ....

The British, for the most saddest of reasons,

..... at their most magnificent!

How does Stephen Hawking know that he wouldn't be alive without an NHS? The choice isn't the NHS or nothing - something else would exist in its place. Perhaps there's one of those parallel universes he likes to talk about where the UK has a better healthcare system, organised and funded along different lines.

It's obvious why the French & Germans have come out of recession before us. They don't have a mad blithering idiot of a Prime Minister like we do. Only 266 more days until we get rid of him

Stephen Hawking isn't the only one to take issue with some of the claims being made in the US health debate - the and the have also highlighted recent falsehoods. Any chance of that getting a mention on Newsnight?

Brown the dancing queen, thought Barrie would have relished that one as much as Jon Stewart did when Cheney shot someone in the face.

Or perhaps it was all too much. When reality outstrips incredulity to the degree even the wordsmiths can only stare at a blank screen.

While outside on the streets of London our politicians have to learn a new cry "Big Ish".

Iran, Iraq and N Korea. Now the NHS is part of the axis of evil.

I have to go the hospital tomorrow. Will we be at risk from an unmanned drone bombing? Or will it be a full scale land assault through outpatients waiting?

We really should be told.

And finally we should be officially told if society and the world has gone completely mad. Then those who may be harbouring a slight suspicion, may be able to feel relief that they aren't just imagining it.

Celtic Lion

Lynddie England

I wonder how many viewers feel able to pass judgement on this person, unless they have been in a similar environment?
We have all been exposed to a great deal of gratuitous violence on TV, not just as 'entertainment' value, as in films and drama, but in real life news broadcasts. That must, to some extent, condition and deaden our reaction to callous behaviour.

At one stage, having witnessed a typical 'pay-back' killing in Port Moresby,(a Mount Hagen axe through the head) I believed that only 'uncivilised' people could act with complete indifference to the sanctity of human life; but watching TV footage of genocide massacres (Cambodia, Darfur, Rwanda, Bosnia) and Kenya's post-elections riots initially by villagers, then more brutality by militia and police - and lately, the London G20 scene - I now believe that most of us probably have a tipping point.

I can also sympathise with the view that the Geneva Convention rules, drawn up when loyal soldiers only killed enemy soldiers, are no longer adequate for this terrorist, suicide bomber age of warfare.

The trial, leading to Ms England's sentence, presumably took account of psychological aspects and the heirarchy of command. We civilians should also take account of the probability that the education and upbringing of many who sign up for military service, with tough military training and total obedience discipline, are all factors that affect behaviour and judgement. Poor judgement, or resentment at being the scapegoat, may be why Ms England refuses to admit any wrongdoing.

#42 from previous page
It just simply sounds abominable that your GP has not even considered for your ear to be syringed. But that doesn't mean another GP wouldn't have considered it. There are GPs and there are GPs. But it's like that with any profession. There are professors and there are professors. There are journalists and there are journalists. There is also the interpersonal factor. One either 'gets on', let's say with a journalist, or one doesn't. It shouldn't be like that in the NHS, however, but I'm afraid it's unavoidable, people being people - with some being considerate and some not so, etc.
I didn't like the way your GP responded to you with 'why would you want to have your ear syringed?'. It's plain rude, if not cruel, to say something like that to a person with a chronic ear problem. A patient/doc talk is not a Westminster debate or an exchange in a news studio where both parties have equal opportunities to challenge one another.
With regard to NHS treatment in general, from my experience, unfortunately it is quite often a question of luck and there are so many factors involved that I couldn't possibly go into the subject now, suffice to say that if one's lucky one can be treated speedily, efficiently and courteously throughout for the bonus, despite the class one might have been born into.
As far as the 2 layer health system is concerned, I think I would be for the private sector in the UK to be expanded and made more accessible for people on average income. It would then take off some of the burden from the NHS with the proviso that those who do have private insurance could at any time, if necessary, be treated on the NHS. After all, all working people, if honest, do pay their national insurance contributions.
Hope your ear will soon be back to normal.
mimpromptu

Boxing developed into a very brutal event in the Ancient Olympic Games
but killing the opponent wasnt a good thing being as they would be declared the winner.

Only free Greek speaking men were allowed to participate but there was the Heraea games - a women's athletic competition, which seems to have been about producing stong future warriors.

"Why have the French and German economies come out of recession and the economy of the UK has not?"

ANSWER: THE UK LABOUR GOVERNMENT- UNLIKE GERMANY'S & FRANCE'S- DOESN'T PROVIDE FOCUSED, LONG-TERM 'PLANNED' SUPPORT FOR THE COUNTRY'S MANUFACTURING SECTOR!!

THE AUTOMOBILE, SHIP-BUILDING & DEFENCE-INDUSTRIES MAKE GOOD CASES IN POINT: Germany and France both provide masses of annualized funding, loan guarentees and research and development assistance to these industries that are based indigenously....

For many decades, the France govt has remained a major part-owner/shareholder/ in many of that country's comparitively huge automobile, transportation, defence and ship-building industries... which all remain in rude health- exporting their products in large amounts- despite the current world-wide 'recessionary' situation...

So what should the UK govt do??

MODIFY THE COUNTRY'S ECONOMIC STRATEGIES, AND BEAT THE FRENCH & GERMANS AT THEIR OWN GAMES!!

WINNING EXPORT ORDERS (TO RELIABLE COUNTRIES) FOR COPIES- OR CUSTOMIZED VERSIONS- OF THE UK's POTENTIALLY 'WORLD-BEATING' (NEW-MODEL) ASTUTE SUBMARINES, TYPE-45 DESTROYERS AND (UNDERGOING DESIGN/CONSTRUCTION) NEW AIRCRAFT CARRIERS WOULD GO A LONG WAY TO RECTIFYING THE PRESENT ERODED UK ECONOMIC & JOB-AVAILABILITY SITUATION...

This strategy would also contribute substantially to

1) maintaining- and enhancing- the UK's defence/high-technology industrial base over the long-term; and,

2) maintaining and increasing the country's capabilities to produce capable, world-beating surface combatants and submarines for both indigenous and export purposes鈥�.

3) burnishing & strengthening the UK's reputation world-wide as a country with extensive, competent, high-technology R & D and related manufacturing industry capabilities- and a good place to invest money in...

-----------------
Defense News Media Group
"Australia Begins Search for Submarine Designers"
August 07-2009:

-----------------

Towards this end, concerned politicians, bureaucrats, MoD and industry officials and interest groups ought to be urgently deliberating how an end run can be carried out around safely predictable Labour govt inaction and incompetence on this issue...

Prominent, ambitious developed and developing-world countries such as South Korea, India, Greece, Saudi Arabia, Australia and Brazil are all looking to substantially upgrade their navies' capabilities...All are reported as wanting to add pocket-sized and/or 'big-deck' aircraft carriers to their respective fleets.

Several, such as Saudi Arabia, India and Greece are shopping for up-to-date Destroyers/Frigates, while Australia is beginning a multi-year programme to acquire 1 dozen modern technology attack submarines to patrol its vast coast lines and sea lanes....

INDIA:

India has been trying for over 14 years to obtain a functioning aircraft carrier from Russia but has been unable to due to Russia's inability to refurbish one of its cold-war era models for India...

So, why couldn't the UK step into the breach, and sell India aircraft carrier(s)- before a country like France does??

If, say, BAE/VT were successful- with UK govt export-funding loans- in obtaining export order(s) for duplicates/customized versions of the aircraft carrier model presently planned for the RN, to a country like India... this could obviate any problems caused by the RN obtaining Conventional Take-Off and Landing (CTOL) F-35C fighters for its new carriers instead of the currently planned Short Take-Off and Vertical Landing (STOVL) F-35B version.

How?

F-35-B's could still be purchased/manufactured in the UK, but these, or the bulk of them could be sold or leased on to India for its new, UK-built carrier(s).

India already has a comparatively large number of STOVL Harriers, so switching over to the STOVL F-35B would not present any difficulties-and likely would be welcomed by India's politicians- as well as U.S. officials:

The United States has, over the last several years, been bending over backwards to get between India and Russia and the previously (for over 1.5 decades) rather extensive sales by Russia of its military and nuclear technology to India... This would imply that sales by the UK of aircraft carrier(s) to India would face very little or no technology transfer hurdles raised by the US...

SOUTH KOREA:

A very, very close US ally in Asia that has long sought 'blue water' capabilities for its navy- if only to 'stay one ahead of highly resented Japan's navy capabilities' (due to still very raw WW II sensitivities)...

Over the last decade, S. Korean officials have been reported repeatedly as saying the country wants at least one proper aircraft carrier to go with its under construction/recently commissioned new surface combatant Destroyers (which are based on the U.S.'s Burke class Destroyer), LHD's, and submarines:



If the UK was successful in generating a South korean export order for copies (or customized versions) of the aircraft carriers planned for the RN, then the currently planned F-35-B's could still be- purchased/manufactured in the UK, but these, or the bulk of them could be sold on to S Korea for deploying on its new, UK-built carrier(s).

For nearly 6 decades, the U.S. has made a routine practice of licensing much of its most secret and high technology weapons, hardware and aircraft to S Korea ... so technology transfer issues that could be factors in a UK sale of aircraft carrier(s) & F-35B鈥檚 to S Korea ought to be negligible or at least not insurmountable...

AUSTRALIA:

Possibly America's closest ally in Asia, Australia also has extensive and deep positive ties to the U.K.. Australia is about 1/3 of the way through a 15-year plan to redevelop and significantly upgrade its navy's capabilities鈥�

Throughout the preceding 5-years, there has been an acrimonious debate within the country's defence community and its political parties regarding Australia possibly purchasing the F-35 versus other fighter aircraft...If the UK was successful at marketing highly capable UK-made aircraft carriers to Australia, and if the sale included CTOL F-35 C's and/or STOVL F-35 B's, this could constructively end Australia's F-35 controversy...

If Australia was convinced of the enormous tactical and functional advantages for by it acquiring nuclear powered submarines as opposed to conventionally powered ones- the UK's Astute attack submarine model has unique positive advantages over other countries' potential offerings:

Astutes are the world's only recently designed & under production model of this category of submarine, and are acknowledged internationally as the best submarine of their type...

France is just commencing a 10-year process to design a replacement for its presently in-service, several decade-old technology attack submarines, and the UK鈥檚 only other possible competitor, the U.S., does not export its nuclear powered submarines...

Technology transfer issues (and US objections) would be minimal or non-existent due to Australia's decades-long reliance on and liberal use of the U.S.'s most advanced military technology and hardware...

BRAZIL:

Not as likely to be an export market for UK-built aircraft carriers or Destroyers- without US technology transfer objections- as South Korea or India, but as France is presently angling for contracts for the 'complete rebuild of Brazil's navy and its infrastructure'- what would be a more appropriate and 'world responsible' nation to do this- the UK or France??

And which country, the UK or France, would make a better custodian of sensitive US/NATO technology that might be compromised if not handled properly- when being incorporated into Brazilian military/naval uses??

If the UK was successful in generating a Brazilian buy of customized-for-export versions of the Type-45 Destroyer and/or aircraft carriers, then the UK鈥檚 currently planned F-35-B's could still be purchased/manufactured in the UK, but these, or the bulk of them might be able to be sold on to Brazil- if U.S. technology transfer issues could be overcome- for use on its new, UK-built carrier(s)...

Alternatively, the UK could assist and work with Brazil in choosing different fighter aircraft compatible with its new, UK-built aircraft carrier(s) and equipping these aircraft with electronics, radars, ordinance, etc....

GREECE:

A staunch NATO ally and trusted U.S. defence technology export market country, Greece is looking to acquire 6 up-to-date, technologically proficient Destroyers or Frigates over the next 7-10 years...

Why let France fill this void with its FREMM Frigates- which were designed in large part with substantial UK technology, know how and finances, as a result of the failed 鈥楿K, France and Italy Horizon Destroyer programme' of the late 1990's ???

The UK's new, under construction and undergoing sea-trials Type-45 Destroyers- if built and fitted as per their designers' specifications- are a far superior-in-capabilities' vessel to France's FREMM's ...

SAUDI ARABIA:

Similar to Greece, Saudi Arabia is looking to acquire 4- 6 up-to-date Destroyers or Frigates in the immediate future:

"Saudi Crown Prince Sultan and the Navy frigate programme"
Tue, August-11 2009

:

"... Saudi Crown Prince Sultan is said to prefer taking more time studying the choices with regard to the Saudi Navy frigate programme... the Saudis are focusing their choices on the (U.S.'s under development) Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) and on (France's) FREMM-class frigate... "

The UK's new, under construction/undergoing sea-trials Type-45 Destroyers- if built and fitted as per their designers' specifications- are a far superior-in-capabilities' vessel to France's FREMM's... and if purchased by Saudi Arabia, would make it the middle east's pre-eminent navy power by a huge margin....

(CONTINUED)

_______________
Roderick V. Louis,
Vancouver, BC, Canada,

Nos 13

Thank you for that mimpromtu. Today 32 days later my ear feels relatively normal. I dread going back there. I had an even worse time of it after minor surgery about 15 years ago at a local hospital. But that story is not for a blog lol

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

It would appear that its knock the NHS season again but duhbuh #10 its perhaps hardly surprising the all the AARP want is a welfare state for the drug and care home companies. #6 streetphotobeing, Stafford ( locked in the Tory 1990s )was an isolated case and most areas of the UK have a first class health system if our area is anything to go by.

In 1994 when I went into a neurosurgery ward to have a back operation it was absolutely filthy, some of the ceiling tiles were missing leaving it open to the loft space. The first time I went in my operation was cancelled due to running out of anesthetic time, so I had to go back a week later. Another quite young patient on said ward had had a particularly difficult brain tumor operation, and when I went back in he was due to go home in a couple of days. He never made it, his scar had opened up due to infection, you could smell it across the bay. Three days went by before he was seen by the surgeon, who then did his nut because he had not been told of the infection immediately, and did an extensive emergency operation on him plus antibiotic drip. They told me not to sit down, then sent me home sat up in my fathers car, the morning after my GP came and shook his head, I had damaged the nerves. With hindsight the proper thing to do would have been to send me by ambulance to convalesce in our local community hospital for another week before going home, perhaps then the operation would have been a success. ( people now do this not just no hope geriatric cases )

It would appear that the policy was to slowly starve you to death, one poor bloke had been in three months in a neck brace drilled into his scull. He was lucky, he had a " high protein diet " ( which meant you got scrambled egg for breakfast ), child size portions for the main mid-day meal ( fancy stuff like pizza ) and " soup and sandwich " at about five. That meant that you had to survive 15 hours to the next meal when you were already half starving. There was no chance of making a decent recovery without ample regular spaced out food, so everyone was desperate to get home. The week day staff couldn't even make a decent brew, better at weekend with different staff, decent brews whenever you wanted them, first rate dedicated nursing care, could get the nurse to buy you a decent sandwich from the staff canteen at night. An argument broke out over borrowing the next door ward's drinking chocolate directly caused by rules from the accountants.

It would appear that hospitals in general have transformed for the better since Labour took charge, all the people I know who have had a more recent encounter for a serious condition in the NHS. I know of one case where a woman was diagnosed with cervical cancer on first smear test. Her GP originally cocked it up for a couple of days, but she was extensively operated upon within two weeks of original diagnosis. I know another case where a hip replacement was ordered fairly pronto, even minor things like frozen shoulder are done in little time compared to the 1990s.

Our local GP's operating it a ( polyclinic ) central health centre is brilliant, if you can be bothered to ring up in the morning you can see your own doctor on the day, perhaps even before 9 AM. They can save you a minor injury A&E trip to the main hospital with their Treatment Room, which also does regular stuff like blood tests etc. The only snag is the parking fee on the adjacent car park, perhaps when applied to new Hospitals a private tax paid to the PFI company.

My dad has been speedily checked out for prostrate cancer, several in depth tests but no waiting to speak of. He's OK but has an " irritable bladder ", perhaps in most part to to his almost 87 age, it would appear that it could be partly psychological, see's a loo and has to use it, better when there is nothing to remind him. Anyway they have him on pills which did show improvement at first but more recently the benefit is less evident. My main bone of contention is that he has to trail all the way to Blackburn in the rush hour ( twice already ), when he could see the consultant at the local community hospital just a couple of mile down the road. Of course I have to take him, but with my Ministry of Silly Walks free parking pass, if he went in his own car the car park could cost as much as the petrol. Just dreading an afternoon appointment, total traffic gridlock on to the main road, probably mostly because they closed the former half mile short cut from the north east catchment area.

The parking is free at our local community hospital, and like the other remaining 19th century hospital in our area free of c-dificele and MRSA despite caring for elderly almost bed ridden / unable to be fixed by surgery. The other two hospitals are new, well 1970s and built like a concrete rabbit warren. The older parts of the new " Royal " central hospital are little better, low ceilings unlike the Victorian hospitals. Florence Nightingale was spot on, let plenty of air circulate to reduce cross infection between patients. Like everything organized by the Corporate Nazi's it fails to encompass first principles, transport policy is just as bad.

It would appear that the US division of Corporate Nazi's are determined to hang on the their rip-off private health care system. A contact in the mid west claims it cost him 400 dollars to get antibiotics to shift a chest infection after a cold. Health costs must be crippling US industry, no wonder GM and Chrysler went bust. If the Americans reject anything resembling the NHS they must be completely stupid and slaves to their Corporate Nazi private media, long live the 成人论坛.

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Re 19

I think I agree with you. (I have quickly scanned your contribution - I don't claim to have read it!)

(Also See my posting item 10 of yesterday on Paul Masons blog /blogs/newsnight/paulmason/2009/08/the_recoverys_coming_but_the_u.html )

It all boils down to being over reliant on bankers to the exclusion of everything else! As well as not investing in our own country (instead we bail out bankers.)

What a brilliant interview with Christine Lagarde (forgive if the spelling is wrong). She talks so much common sense that it is no wonder that the French economy is making its fragile recovery. Is it in the rules that we can dump Brown and Darling and have her as PM and chancellor?

WHEN TEETH ARE TOO WHITE, DOES IT SPEAK OF MISJUDGEMENT?

"Berlusconi springs to mind" (#7) for me, every time Christine Lagarde flashes that terrifying, incongruous set of teeth.
Ultimately, politicians whatever their post, are in charge of PEOPLE. If they mismanage themselves, what chance others?

The real villians are Bush, Rumsfeld and cheney.

L England was a young hicksvill soldier ill prepared for her role in a US Iraqi Military prison but quickly became the scapegoat for all that was wrong in the treatment/torture of Iraqi detainees thanks to some pictures published. The interviewer should have checked out the Zimbardo study - the prisoner and guard experiment or flicked through 'Lord of the flies'.. Better questions may then have been asked.

Hi,

mmmmmmm, dont know where to begin or end re the comments from the US about our Health care system, nor what it means about a person who basically lies to win a point, but incredibly both seem to be made from some moral highpoint; except it isn't. I want to be careful being specific about this, but how can any decent person refuse to help those needing medical care?

often these sort of transatlantic debate takes place because we play by different rules, rather than perhaps taking a more anglo-saxon Alan Duncan approach, and telling them basically where to stick their lies.

Perhaps we should consider the sense in debating with such people, except I guess they are trying to use lies about our health care system to prevent important radical changes in the US that would greatly help the poor and marginalised,and in doing so make the US a stronger more stabile country which can only be good for the World,

thank goodness Obama became President rather than the other lot,

If these changes can be made I would hope it might bring the US more in line culturally to the rest of us, some of the people opposing health care in the US appear to be quite uneducated, and just plain nasty,

British ministers cite the massive investment they have made to prove how superior the NHS is, but what kind of a system is only successful if it is drowned in money; the money used to overcome the strangulation of Soviet-style control? Shouldn't the 'correct' healthcare system be one which has the flexibility to provide what is needed, irrespective of the money?

The bleating, in support of the NHS, sounds a lot like the left's claim that all problems in the education system are the product of a lack of money - just a few more billion will turn the schools around. It couldn't be the 'Comprehensive' model that is the root cause of most of the problems and giving schools the ability to control their own budgets and make their own decisions will lead to innovation and a tailored service for every child? Or is the lowest-common-denominator, one-size-fits-all, centrally-managed approach the best?

The problem is not bonuses in the City, infact bonuses for making money via honest trading has always been key to the success of the finance sector. The problem is that the trades that have caused the financial mess we are now in were never profitable in the real world but were in structured finance computer models in which 2+2=5, this was, and still is fraudulent. The losses we see today were always there, it's just now we can see them, for a while the banks could use off balance sheet sheet companies to hide losses, just like ENRON, but then it all became too much to cover up and the losses had to be admitted. So why was any of this fraudulent activity every allowed to happen? The simple answer is everyone involved had something to gain, the traders in structured finance products like MBS, CDOs, CDO squared, CDS etc got bonuses, in turn their managers got bonuses, the politicians got to hail an end to boom and bust, the police and FSA got paid to sit on their hands and do nothing to stop it, the Bank of England got to keep LIBOR low and seem like gods for managing interest rates, but they all knew, like I and many others who have been watching this take shape for years knew, that it is systemic fraud.

One of the (many) peculiar things about the American health care debate is the fact that the American health plan for over 60s, Medicare, IS government funded and no American is suggesting that constitutes 'central government interference' and should be disbanded. It is impossible to believe that most Americans don't realise that Medicare is a government institution. But who knows...!! It was also mind blowing to have seen that Republican lawmaker hold up Senator Edward Kennedy's treatment as a model of American private healthcare. As if most Americans who have health insurance coverage (or not) would receive the same care as the very rich Senator Kennedy. That Republican spokesman also disparaged Cuban healthcare as well even though he just betrayed mammoth ignorance or prejudice. The high standard of Cuban healthcare is famous throughout the world. Nor did he explain why Americans troop to Canada to buy cheaper drugs - or used to. Don't remember whether big pharmaceutical companies put an end to this because they were losing money. Americans are regularly bankrupted by health care costs that they cannot meet. The Newsnight team, has to be said, seemed oddly bereft of facts to hand even though such information would have been in their files from earlier programmes... Why does news coverage have to be like groundhog day? Endless 'fresh start' rehashes without updating comment with knowledge already gained - and aired. End of gripes for the moment.

Why have the French and German economies come out of recession and the economy of the UK has not? Our Economics Editor Paul Mason is in Paris.

I am doubtful of the French and German economies are out of recession...But, if it is that is good news....

=Dennis Junior=

me #18

Just to clarify the outcome of alleged cervical cancer operation is complete success so far, the hip operation was elected to be done at the main NHS site. She could have had it done in a private hospital but after seeing several friends outcomes with complications after private hospitals she felt safer with the NHS. It was a particularly complicated hip operation and it was said that the private hospital could not have done it. Alleged frozen shoulder was done in private hospital, movement much improved but remaining pain despite physio therapy although early days yet. It would appear that UK private hospitals can't cope with anything other than routine easy surgery on " fit " people.

A far cry from the 1930's when my infant auntie died of whooping cough because the doctor couldn't be bothered to make a short walk up the fields when the main access road was blocked by snow. Perhaps the fact that he knew the often skint small hill farmers couldn't afford to pay for treatment had something to do with it also.

A person who should have known better, humiliating another in a form of torture that will still leave scars despite barely a hand being laid upon the victim. All to satisfy the perverse needs of her superiors in a fruitless effort to generate results.

At least Ms. England has the dubious reason if not excuse of being a not very sharp cog in a very complex machine messed up by a very bad situation. And evidently is paying, and/or being made to pay, for her all too human mistakes every day of her now wretched life.

Whether the 成人论坛, and its reporting and editorial employees, can claim the same is an interesting point in comparison. And now the circus moves on, perhaps only to return when the demands of ratings requires that this woman's innocent son is indeed again confronted by the high profile actions of his mother.

Were that some who have committed far worse to be confronted with the consequences of theirs in a similar fashion.

As too often happens, a lot of heat was generated, but little by way of illumination. And all heat does is keep the fires of destruction burning.

Two wrongs don't make a right to be sure. But compounding the whole sorry episode with another seems perverse.

from mimpromptu
Another ditty is on my table
Let's hope we manage to nip in the bud
The nasty, the traitors and the maddening bad
And help the UK once again become stable

Gavin Esler was in excellent form last night, for once I found Newsnight worth watching !.

His interview with the French minister was superb, she made a refreshing change to the rubbish spouted by our own government ministers.

Lets hope that Newsnight presenters use her direct answers to direct questions as the template for any future interviews with UK politicians.

Paul Mason (the 成人论坛 resident Marxist) interviews with the French public had me smiling, especially his disbelief when he asked the french shopkeeper about Sarkozy, obviously Mr Mason was expecting a negative opinion about the French President, Mr Masons voice and face when he received back a positive response was priceless.

And this is why the French economy is coming out of recession.

I cannot believe this ruddy government, we have massive unemployment but hey we're giving away jobs to India, and paying for the privilage as well. We pay for other countrys to have work, but keep our own compatriots on the dole! So a double whammy for the tax payer. As I said the other day, as a student please don't bother studying IT, it's a waste of time, all the jobs will either be given to Indians brought in here under some agreement, or sent to India. Not that I think there is anything wrong with their work, I'm sure they're excellent. But I have found them very condecending when discussing IT problems via "help lines".

France is a Socialist country, something our Labour Government know nothing about, but they do know how to control us and our wages, keep them as low as possible, except when it comes to a bonus!

The French always give work to french people first, then after that they consider other foreign people. They are extraodinarily loyal to each other, something that doesn't happen here anymore, it's all divide and rule, every man for himself.

Like others I find Christine Lafarge a brilliant politician, she doesn't spout off about rights for women, she just gets on with job, and leaves most of our politicians standing. Outspoken and to the point, and her english is superb, I'd love her for PM.

Sorry make that Christine Lagarde

That'll teach me to look at another posters spelling! OOpps! :/

No.33. ecolizzy

The same old problem: Britain is good at importing, but not so good at exporting.

France sometimes has a trade surplus and sometimes a trade deficit. It has good internal demand for its own products. It does not suffer from excessive bank borrowing either. All in all, it tries for a more balanced approach. Critics say that France suffers from high levels of structual unemployment and should reform itself to be more like the UK......

Personally, I have more empathy with France and Germany than I do with the USA and the UK. The over-indebtedness of the USA and UK is worse than the socio bureaucratic over-indulgence of mainland Europe.

In the long run, who will perform better, France or Britain?
Only time will tell.

(re-submitted, as after the below posting was removed- after being on the NN web page for over 6 hours- I checked the 成人论坛 posting guidelines, and found that it complies)

"Why have the French and German economies come out of recession and the economy of the UK has not?"

ANSWER: THE UK LABOUR GOVERNMENT- UNLIKE GERMANY'S & FRANCE'S- DOESN'T PROVIDE FOCUSED, LONG-TERM 'PLANNED' SUPPORT FOR THE COUNTRY'S MANUFACTURING SECTOR!!

PART 2:

France, Spain and Germany are selling 'like hotcakes' their:

1) (diesel) submarines; Destroyers (Horizon and FREMM classes, designed with considerable amounts of previous UK technical participation and money)







;

2) Frigates (FREMM) and smaller vessels/support vessels; as well as

3) related types of Naval equipment and military infrastructure

鈥� to countries such as Brazil, India, Greece, Malaysia, S Korea, Singapore, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Australia, Turkey (and many other countries)...

FRANCE SELLING RUSSIA AIRCRAFT CARRIERS?? UK-DEVELOPED TECHNOLOGIES??

Russia has been reliably reported as looking for an international partner to build nuclear powered aircraft carriers with, and France's DCNS has been tipped as a preferred company of choice:

"Russian Navy facing 'irreversible collapse'鈥�:
(13 July 2009)



"... According to Russian industry sources, navy officials held talks with both DCNS, which was exhibiting at the Russian naval expo for the first time, and ... Thales....

"Russia's Naval leadership is attempting to negotiate a set of cooperative arrangements that would see the navy engaged in:

- "the joint production of the Mistral and Tonnerre BPC (Batiment de Projection et de Commandement) ships equipped with a heavy helicopter flight deck and potentially a hovercraft dock for rapid amphibious assault operations;

- "a Franco-Russian project to design and build a series of nuclear-powered aircraft carriers for both countries' navies.

"... The Russian Navy is also reportedly looking to procure some types of submarine from Germany..." (likely diesel, AIP type- rvl)
----------------

This is highly relevant to potential UK sales of copies of 'UK versions' of the UK/France Aircraft Carrier Project's carriers* :

* :

Note the text: "... The (French aircraft carrier) project... is... proceeding in cooperation with the UK... The latest developments once again cast doubt on the (project's) future... (not) likely to be decided until 2011... France is re-considering nuclear propulsion in light of contemporary fuel prices...."

:

Note the text: "... In December 2005, following discussions between the UK and French governments on the possibility of cooperation with the design of the next French carrier, the PA2, it was agreed that France would pay one-third of the costs of the demonstration phase of a common baseline design of CVF (the UK's aircraft carriers). A memorandum of understanding to that effect was signed by the two nations in March 2006. The French plans for the PA2 have since been put on hold and a decision is not now planned until 2011..."

France has 'put on hold' the building of 'its version(s'), while the UK- (apparently as a result of Labour's crass vote buying attempts) has decided to go ahead, albeit in a less than half-baked manner with the UK carriers...

Considering that France is under no legal requirement to not work with- or at least could not be stopped from cooperating with Russia in the building of Aircraft Carriers, and considering the enormous amount of UK intellectual and other property plus money that has gone into the design work of the UK/France Aircraft Carrier project...

- 'What if France decides to work with Russia in the building of Aircraft Carriers (or other warships like the Horizon or FREMM Destroyers/Frigates- all designed with massive UK input and participation- until France engineered a UK pull out!!)??'

Russia's miniaturization of nuclear reactors capabilities is thought to be more advanced than France's...

France doesn't want to repeat the mistakes of its present nuclear powered Aircraft Carrier- which has experienced many reactor flaws and problems...

Thales has been a very large seller of military type equipment to Russia for over a decade- (aircraft targeting pods and the like)

Surely it would be responsible for whatever party is in govt to re-assess the UK/France aircraft carrier project with the objective of considering if it ought to be put on hold while possible partnerships with the U.S. in such a project were explored??

If the UK carrier build programme was put on hold temporarily- this would free up govt and industry officials to work energetically at generating export orders for copies of the on-hold aircraft carriers to reliable countries- such as India, South Korea, Australia, Greece, Saudi Arabia and, possibly, Brazil...

Successful aircraft carrier and F-35 B aircraft sales, and the related spin off administrative, training, design work and manufacturing jobs for UK citizens both in the UK and abroad- would invariably result in ameliorating any potential downsides to the UK, for possibly, switching its orders for the F-35B STOVL to the F-35C CTOL version of this aircraft...

Similarly, UK exports of customized-for-export versions of its Astute submarines and Type-45 Destroyers would generate administrative, training, design work and manufacturing jobs for UK citizens both in the UK and abroad for many decades...

Thinking outwards, expandingly in an export mind-set, rather than thinking inwards, in a 'negatively reactive' way is needed by UK govt, industry and MoD officials...



_______________
Roderick V. Louis,
[Personal details removed by Moderator]

credit crunch

why did the australians say they 'dodged the bullet'..

any investigation of the chicago school and those promoting market fundamentalism will show its not an 'anglo saxon model'? one can say the uk bought into it but they didn't invent it? anglo saxon is just perjorative?

I thought Newsnight let the American 'health' spokesman off the hook, and should made more of Sarah Palin's 'NHS death panels' gibe. It seems to me that Alaskans should check their water supply. If it damages brains so comprehensibly there must be something wrong with it. (Too much oil pollution?) BTW, could anyone tell me how much of GDP is spent on American Medicare and health in general? The cat sneezed and I missed the figure last night, plus I have no access to i-Player. Thank you.

Can I echo the comments about the excellent Christine Lagarde.

I share some concerns about the interview with Lynndie England. I thought the interviewer was leading the witness at some points, and almost viewed her role as being to 'punish' Lynndie England. Of course I don't condone what she did, but I was more interested in finding out about the conditions, the background, the 'atmosphere' which seemed to be conducive to allowing this to happen.

What was the role of 'Military Intelligence' ? What was the role of the more senior women who was told 'to Gitmo-ize' the place ? Why was a man and his 'girlfriend' allowed to be on the same 'watch' together ? Is that not a security risk in itself ?

Unfortunately these questions weren't answered, and I guess I understand that the background of the reporter was in atrocities far worse than Abu Ghraib which might have resulted had not the media 'blown the whistle'.

But I feel the interview was a bit of a missed opportunity. Of course, Lynndie England should face up to what she did - but maybe that will take a bit more time, and I think a bit more patience would have helped.

NO SUCH THING AS FAMILY

'NHS Cameron' (not half stupid) has crowed the words 'Family Doctor' today. Has no one told him they died under Blatcherism?

In these days (trust me - I am family) the doctor declares your sibling 'capable' and can then apply his own foibles to them. You can't be consulted or advised as that breaches 'patient confidentiality'. In my specific case: my brother, rationally angry at being robbed of all interest in life by a stroke, is on happy pills, set to endure years of 'care'.

British do-gooders fret about 'assisted dying' - my brother has received assisted-living-death. Anyone for a fret about that?

Hello? Dave?

I thought most people would have had to agree with Christine Lagarde last night but ...

The reason we don't want the excessive bonuses is because we fear it will cause excessive risk taking. But issues like quality credit rating agencies, agreed risk analysis methods, proper regulation, legislation to punish reckless risk taking, taxation methods, bank size and complexity might achieve the same effect. Then it would be a matter for the share holders to agree to the bonuses.

At the moment none of that is happening.

Would the EU "President Blair", the "peoples President", be able to tackle Turkey on human rights abuses with regard to EU entry and warn against invading any Kurdistan that may be formed should Iraq break up in the future?

Is this the man who Europe wants to enhance the economic culture of finance when he is the man who could not understand why the FSA would ever want to stick its oar into the business of big reputable banks?

#18 brossen99

"If the Americans reject anything resembling the NHS they must be completely stupid and slaves to their Corporate Nazi private media, long live the 成人论坛."

I am puzzled as you have said you were a "Muslim" and against democracy yet you are inclined to choice - the right of the citizens to choose.

I assume you would be wanting a Caliphate.

The BNP posters often subscribe to National Socialism and the tyranny of a dictatorship by the way.

So would there be solely a free and unbiased 成人论坛 in your world or would it be the voice of the "enlightened"?

#33 ecolizzy

"The French always give work to french people first, then after that they consider other foreign people."

Thats not quite fair as there are plenty of Europeans working in France. You have said before that you disliked visiting London due to the racial mix.

You have also said that you visited the BNP website " as I had called you a fascist" - actually I don't recall that but if so it was something to do with your reverence for Hitler and National Socialist ideals and our support of the BNP.

Perhaps they have misled you as they say they are "not a Nazi party" they are "a modern and progressive party".

So clearly a modern and progressive party would not subscribe to the unscientific analysis of people by race and genetics as there is greater
variation genetically within a race than between races.

People who tend to believe that kind of thing are often intellectually limited like the Baby P batterer with an IQ of sixty. Perhaps in fairness to him he was brainwashed by some far right ideologue.

ecolizzy @33: "i cannot believe this bloody govt"

Its all about global govt. I have goons from Lloyds tsb in today talking about their recent acquisition and how they intend to migrate their systems on to ours (read job loses) so i haven't the time to go into detail so am gonna give you key words and phrases for you to research, if you so wish:

New world order, Bilderberg, European superstate, north Americaan superstate.

there are some sensational claims in the following link but generally the alternative media does better research than our established media:
approx 2hrs long.

Go1: your confusing kingceltic with me regarding your 'Belfast' comments. can you direct anything 'Belfast' to me. thanking you.

#43 GANGOPHONE ( definition from future Oxford English dictionary )

A type of wind up gramophone only capable of playing the same Corporate Nazi inspired records, which then jumps and plays the same old tracks of rhetoric over and over again. Obviously your limited brain capacity has already forgotten my NN post from just the other week 29/072009 #80

/blogs/newsnight/fromthewebteam/2009/07/wednesday_29_july_2009.html

" Are you dyslexic or something or just so far up your own backside that you can't be bothered to take the time to read anything properly, I never said I was Muslim or BNP but your favourite Lib-Demmics are lower in my estimation than any immigrant."

You would appear to be having a go at everyone and anyone for no sound of mind reason, take KingCelticLion for instance and his submission to Nobel prize work. I have seen they evidence to back up what he says, but then perhaps you are missing JadedJean, hope she is back soon as the blog is at a significant loss without her.

Hi,

May I ask if Newsnight could ask Mr Cameron if he regrets the Privatisation of cleaning services in hospitals?

TOO MUCH INFORMATION (#47)

(1) I thought I read Celtic rightly, saying one had to PAY to get the printout? What have you seen 99 - where?
(2) Actually TWO Nobels wasn't it? (But who's counting.)
(3) Are you sure a Gangofone isn't several megaphones ganged together (See Bart Simpson for details) for the purpose of megaphone UNdiplomacy?
(4) Yay! Bring back JJ - let's have some serious contention, and grinding gravitas!

#45 thecookieducker yes I see what you mean! I haven't looked at the video link yet but I will, it's a bit long! ; )

I suppose that's what will happen we'll have mightier and mightier super states, all fighting each other eventually. And then as KCL says it'll all come crumbling down around our heads, because nobody was looking at the natural world that supports us all. We'll probably, the fittest, and toughest and those used to deprivation, then all toddle back to the stone age or a very slow and prolonged death, from all the muck, nuclear etc. that's left behind just like Leo says as well. : (

barrie #49

KCL sent me a link to a web site but its no good if you don't already know his real name, as far as I know it was only one Nobel but then the gangophone does tend to twist reality. I will refrain from pasting said link for personal confidentiality reasons but it is there in cyberspace, even KCL only stumbled on it by chance recently.

Hi,

Looks whats going on at the moment over the other side of Pond !!

seems like we might be losing Daniel Hannan MEP to US Politics?









Perhaps we could all sign up and urge Hannan to go!
But in his fabour perhaps he has being honest?

Hi,

and another one!!



they're growing like topsy over there!
just goes to show how far stabbing your own country in the back, and pandering to the extreme right gets you,

do remember one of the Royals doing something similar, and getting away with it,




Cameron must be in a quandry, I do think Hannan's views represent others in the Party,

How the leader must have hoped they would all remain stumm, up in the attic until the Cons had gained power,

WHATEVER YOU DO! kEEP QUIET UNTIL THE eLECTION IS OVER !!

must be the thinking of some of their strategists?

well as they say, there are Lies, Damm Lies and PUBLIC RELATIONS,

still think, and events have proved this that the Conservative Party elected the weaker candidate as leader,

preferring style over substance,

but perhaps now the truth is slowly starting to trickle out about what they really stand for?

Now its getting serious!



if he hasn't done this, he needs to immediately make a statement,

Please could Newsnight ask him to do this

WELL IT WORKED FOR TONY (#53)

"just goes to show how far stabbing your own country in the back, and pandering to the extreme right gets you"

[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

if the devil is in the detail Mr Hannans declaration of financial interests to the European Parliament doesnt tell us much, ie 3 words and a conjunction.

Channel 4 reported tonight that he had being making derogatory comments about the NHS back in April, but why didnt David Cameron pick him up about it then?

I'm not suggesting everything is sweet in the woodpile as far as the NHS is concerned but the Conservative Party by everything it has ever done and said not the Party of ordinary people but one that promotes the interests of the more privileged comfortable groups in our society,

some of them might be nice as people but there is something skewed about their view of life, of course they would say the same about me!

Hi, not for posting but just an apology if overstepped the mark with 56,

am annoyed with Mr Hannam rubbishing us over in America and thought I would check his declaration of financial interests, sorry if getting a bit personal on this, will be careful with future posts,

BLAIRGOWRIE TOWN HALL (#51)

Seems I could have got the whole works for a three quid seat in 2007. Doh!

成人论坛 News

I was very perturbed by the exclusive interview with Lynndie England - in the book Standard Operating Procedure by Gourevitch and Morris she is described as someone who had never been anywhere besides her hometown. She came under the infulence of Graner at Abu Ghraib and it was clear that, on the whole, the senior staff condoned and allowed the abuse at the prison. The questions she faced should also be put to senior commanders who were on the ground and their political masters

Gavin:

Lynddie England

I think that Lynddie England got a raw deal, although I do not condone torture and/or misconduct of prisoners......

=Dennis Junior=

I am glad that Stephen Hawking is forcefully defending the N.H.S. in the onslaught against it, from Right-wing political figures in the United States....

=Dennis Junior=