³ÉÈËÂÛ̳

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

how much more evidence do we need to see that israel is a rogue state [with nuclear weapons]? Causing a bloodbath doesn't show any kind of statecraft or state wisdom? so why should we expect them to deal wisely with nuclear weapons? Israel is proving and is the most likely the greatest threat to world peace?

How can cameron be patron of the JNF and support human rights for all when the jnf policies would be illegal in the uk? why is raising money for illegal settlements allowed in the uk?

the passport fakers are no ones friends and allies but their own? the world is getting bored with the current israeli experience? their model failed. in the end it will lead to a failed state [with nuclear weapons]. It is only prudent to consider it.

On 26 May, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said in Seoul the world must respond to the "unacceptable provocation" represented by the attack on a South Korean warship, as Pyongyang engaged in blistering rhetoric against Seoul and Washington. Clinton told reporters after talks with South Korean leaders that "the international community has a responsibility and a duty to respond" to the attack, which "requires a strong but measured response." She spoke at a joint news conference with South Korean Foreign Minister Yu Myung-hwan.
The White House is yet to clarify what kind of response the U.S. administration would take rebuking Jerusalem.

I think the raid on the aid ships was a terrible idea and it is a disgrace if nobody is charged for murder.

Part of me wonders whether the US could not ship in the aid and thereby guarantee there were no weapons and so on in the cargo.

But it was a truly scandalous and cynical act by Israel.

There is no doubt that there will be those driven by anti-semitism who will seek to exploit the crisis as has been seen on this page many times in the past.

Still the terrible thing about the Middle East that the same kinds of outrages from both sides keep happening - though perhaps this one will change the political balance in the US some.

On North Korea it seems to my untutored eye that this is a question of who blinks first.

The "Great Leader" has run out of road and looks ill.

The US is not going to offer them any money or deference and the paranoia of such a state must make them fearful of their own shadows.

You have to assume that China does have a very good idea of what is going on in North Korea but the signals they have sent out seem to be purely to the leadership that China will not get sucked into a pointless potentially nuclear conflict without good reason.

So is North Korea a rational though desperate actor or the whacko with automtaic weapons who is just about to lose it in a shopping mall?

I hope it is the former.

One of the papers, I think the Guardian, was suggesting that the odious English Defence League were picking up a lot of support from serving soldiers.

That is worrying if true though I am sceptical as when I have seen film footage there don't seem to me to be the military types in there.

It's difficult though as the soldiers do of course have a democratic right to protest - but when its with a group whose members will complain about bhurka's but wear balaclava's the wrong way round with eye holes cut out you do of course worry.

So far as I know we are still to see the genuine leadership of the EDL.

Should it emerge that there are in fact strong links to the BNP you do wonder whether the recent internal spat between Collett and Griffin will affect the direction of this puppet organisation one way or the other.

"Tonight we'll debate if Mr Alexander really is the best man for the job or simply the only Lib Dem left."

I doubt that Danny Alexander would dispute that Laws was better qualified for the role but I assume also that as the role involves negotiation and he performed well in the negotiations for coalition that that is a strong factor.

It is also a factor that he represents a lot of votes that are crucial to making the coalition legitimate as an expression of the political will of the people.

It would be easy to ridicule Lord Croquet of Hull (Prescott) but one query I have is how long would he be Lord Croquet if the HoL is to be fully elected?

I was hoping it would be an end of the month job for the coalition but perhaps they are going to let it come in with the next general election?

Israel is a law unto itself......and there is no law...

WE ARE ALL EQUALLY ROGUE STATES - SOME MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS. (#2)

All's unfair in love and war. Since the 'New Pearl Harbour' of 9/11, are we not all in a state of undeclared war? The pre-emptive strike protocol was established. We only have to have 'intelligence' (how I love that word) against another state, and we can flatten them. (Don't try this 'at home' - on the estate.)

How much simpler it would be if we tried to put our own houses in order. Britain can start with Westminster iniquity.

YOU CAN'T BOMB JERUSALEM

The new one ISN'T READY!

On a far lighter note,


;o)

10

if true then there can be no friends or allies in international relations? yet we are told we have loads of friends and allies? If one reads cicero's treatise on friendship one would have a good definition of what a friend is and what a friend is not and why friendship can be impossible.

if there is no such thing as the good then there are cannot be anyone who has that as a commonality out of which friendship comes?

in terms of uk security the possibility exists that a rogue state with nuclear weapons with a religious ideology that believes in provoking the second coming and so the end of days or even through a blinkered racial nationalism may not be bound by reason and common sense never mind law? is this not exactly the threat blair kept going on about? israel is not acting as a responsible country? we should have a plan? but i know the nihilist state apparatus hates society building plans.

the only reason for sending special forces in is to kill. if they just wanted to impound the goods they could have done that.

if you are reckless with lethal weapons like a car or a banned dog and someone dies it seems you can get away with very little 'blowback' from the State? the state sees the death as an 'accident'? does one have a banned dog 'by accident' or by design and pre meditation?

Have a look at what REALLY happened on the "peace" flotilla.....
Source:

Benjamin's statement 'it is regrettable' sounds like an offense, considering the techniques the Israeli soldiers used on those present on the ship and killing at least ten of them.

Why are so many Jews doing all they can to turn the world's sympathy from their cause and establishment of some kind of form of peace with their neighbours?

M

I'm afraid I shan't watch Newsnight live tonight but am looking forward to seeing the piece on Louise Bourgeois on the iPlayer tomorrow. When in Paris a couple of years ago I took quite a few snapshots of her sculptures of a man and a woman holding hands. If one walks through the park from the Louvre, they can be found at the end of the long path just before the Place de la Concorde which is about half way towards L'Arc de Triomphe. I have also seen, and loved, her giant spider at Tate Modern all those years ago.

mim

I suspect that the eco-fascist leaning ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ will do everything they can to avoid reporting the news that Al Gore's wife has left him. She is probably " cashing in " before the false economic growth " green financial bubble " eventually bursts, perhaps sooner rather than later, bye-bye ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ pension pot ?

jonathan cook writing in counterpunch has it about right :

"It is quite astounding that Israel has been able to create over the past 12 hours a news blackout, just as it did with its attack on Gaza 18 months ago, into which our main media organisations have willingly allowed Israeli spokespeople to step in unchallenged.

How many civilians were killed in Israel’s dawn attack on the Gaza-bound flotilla of aid? We still don’t know. How many wounded? Your guess is as good as mine. Were the aid activists armed with guns? Yes, says Israel. Were they in cahoots with al-Qaeda and Hamas? Certainly, says Israel. Did the soldiers act reasonably? Of course, they faced a lynch, says Israel.

If we needed any evidence of the degree to which Western TV journalists are simply stenographers to power, the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳, CNN and others are amply proving it. Mark Regev, Israel’s propagandist-in-chief, has the airwaves largely to himself.

The passengers on the ships, meanwhile, have been kidnapped by Israel and are unable to provide an alternative version of events. We can guess they will remain in enforced silence until Israel is sure it has set the news agenda."

i so dislike the way the bbc has been admonishing those who sought to break the gaza siege or as the bbc calls it the blockade , asking why as if it was they who were acting illegally rather than informing us that the siege in fact is illegal as was the murderous attack on the flotilla.

to think this flotilla would not have been covered and had been ignored by the bbc in its broadcasts until this point in time due to the outrageous events.

as for hamas being terrorists, i think of them as being as equals to irgun or stern.

anyway the ft has a good comment upon the events



as has craig murray with regard to legality of the israeli action:

"A word on the legal position, which is very plain. To attack a foreign flagged vessel in international waters is illegal. It is not piracy, as the Israeli vessels carried a military commission. It is rather an act of illegal warfare."

[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

@ Mim #16 - have a look at the vido I posted, and see for yourself the so called "peace" flotilla which has armed "volunteers" who are attacking and shooting the IDF soldiers.

Noting from Mark Urban's analysis of the ship assault just now that the troops dropped from the helicopter were also apparently armed with HV weapons - the lad getting pushed into the doorway looked to be carrying an M16 type assault rifle. I'm guessing this is where the fatal shootings happened as the commandos panicked and opened fire after coming under attack.

Long barrel high velocity weapon apparent (pointing down to the left) at 25 seconds in the Turkish TV footage of the helicopter assault:

Today I was on a train, and met an German woman, we talked about the Israeli raid on the flotilla, she said "They are as bad as Hitler was, they just want more lebensraum... more land, and will kill anyone for it, it's just crazy" and that is the most sensible comment I've heard on the subject. As for the piece on NN, well one Israeli, and one Neocon supporting Israel against one Palestinian view cannot be in any way fair, as the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ is supposed to be, also the fact that the armed storming of a ship in International waters is not only piracy it is an act of war was not even mentioned, but then again as someone who sails international waters I understand and respect International Maritime Law, unlike the Israelis, who have chosen to be international criminals and if I receive a Mayday from an Israeli registered vessel I will not answer it.

EVEN THEY HAVE FOOL OR KNAVE DUALITY

It all has the feel of a created 'incident'. Now we have to ponder whose purpose as served.

Or were there WMD on the boat? That would make it OK.

#17

I appreciate, Mistress76uk, what you're trying to say but one could say that those on board were fighting in self-defence.

mim

#27 addendum

And the current Israeli government is actively supporting the expansion of settlements against international agreement, etc.

I'm trying to be as impartial as possible with regard to that particular conflict and quite often, for example, dance on ice to Itzhak Perlman followed by a piece of Arabian music or vice versa and in fact shall do so again later on at Queen's.

mim

if only gnu realised how ridiculous he is

BREAKING NEWS:



Words of Wisdom - Jeremy is one of very few people who make me laough out loud!!!! Alas, he can't do it too often on Newsnight.

mim

Oh Mim #29 - that's brilliant!!!!!

PAXMAN A COMEDIAN?

Far too tempting. 'You may say that, Icouldn't possibly comment!'

When will Newsnight drop the pretence that Mark Urban is a Diplomatic Correspondent, when all he ever provides is a lot of boys own nonsense? Time to go back to playing with your tin soldiers Mark and leave the diplomatic analysis to someone who's actually interested in it.

BACK HANDED (Well it IS the Tennis Season)
#29/30

Are you SURE he meant that in a complimentary manner?

I cannot add to the vociferous debate about Israel/Gaza blockades so will respond to voice in head that says "Get back to work Woman!"...... because it is the Tennis season and it is a good thing that one is not allowed to carry weapons in this country!

@ Wendymann #20 Hamas, is a terrorist organisation (as classified by the UK, EU, USA, Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan and Jordan - see below).

Australia - The military wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, is listed as a terrorist organization.

Canada - Describes Hamas as a "a radical Sunni Muslim terrorist organization."

European Union - Lists Hamas among the entities against which it applies restrictions in order to combat terrorism.

Israel - The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that "Hamas maintains a terrorist infrastructure in Gaza and the West Bank, and acts to carry out terrorist attacks in the territories and Israel."

Japan - Stated in 2005 that it had frozen the assets of "terrorist organizations, including... Hamas."

Jordan Banned Hamas in 1999.

United Kingdom - The Iz al-Din al-Qassem Brigades is listed as a proscribed terrorist group.

United States - Lists Hamas as a "Foreign Terrorist Organization"

Watch this interview on Al-Jazeera (English) from last night:

#33

BYT

I don't really care what he meant but I do love Jeremy's sense of humour which probably works for him better in real life, as a spontaneos reaction rather than a coldly preplanned 'gnu's' shallow 'clowning about'.

Were you referring to me about 'work'. If so, what work?

mim

HAMAS AND ANTHROPOGENIC GLOBAL WARMING (#34)

The world is run by men 76. Be advised by one.

Just because a bunch of men decide to call Hamas 'Terrorists', does not make it true, any more than it was true when all those 'scientists' said 'global warming' is caused by man.

In the future, everyone will be a Terrorist for 15 minutes.

see how Urban in his report started with commando raid massacre and ended with Iran. very clever misdirection. so now iran is really to blame for why israel machine guns people delivering baby food?

even hasbara handbook regev looked rattled at having to explain this bibi doodoo?

another foreigner not understanding kirsty and her complex questions in glaswegan? so funny.

as for the usa saying protesters should not be provocative? which bit of illegal occupation is not provocative? which bit of collective punishment is not provocative? israel is a rogue state and can only continue its settler expansion through constant violence.

Janet Tavakoli telling it as it is :-



'screwed going in and screwed going out'

Your very drawable you know Janet.

The information about gold is for people who have tons of dosh. What we need is information for the ordinary working, even unemployed person - they are still not fully getting it or educated

properly about banks and why its important to protect the value in your money.

#38 - technical people - I didn't press 'Post Comment' - it just uploaded on its own ?

Janet Tavakoli telling it as it is :-



'screwed going in and screwed going out'

Your very drawable you know Janet.

The information about gold is for people who have tons of dosh. What we need is information for the ordinary working, even unemployed person - they are still not fully getting it or educated properly about banks and why its important to protect the value in your money.

#35

No need to fret Mim. It is my work that I need to get back to. Manic time of year - everyone wants things done yesterday and I could easily live without a couple of determined saboteurs (hence the gun reference - need to hone up my aim but they may slower to move than the clay pigeons I am more used to blasting) That is supposed to be a joke.

#34 and #36

Rather than discuss the label of Terrorist being placed on Hammas (Personally I think there is undoubtedly a terrorist element) what about ADDING the state of Israel (likewise elements that fit that description) to the list.

Sometimes those with the right ideas take the wrong actions through desperation or as BS points out, through basic human physiology. Contrary to popular culture The Sword makes a point more clearly than the Pen - but as yet has no eraser to right its wrong strokes.

#37
I couldn't stay tuned to Kirsty long enough to see her bamboozle someone else. And I am NOT foreign and have lived in North East Scotland (that's a fun dialect too) for over 20 years. I don't like being unkind to people but I simply cannot understand how she holds such a position with such appalling diction, especially when she gets excited or flustered.

Paintballing anyone?????

"have a look at the vido I posted, and see for yourself the so called "peace" flotilla which has armed "volunteers" who are attacking and shooting the IDF soldiers."

have the israelis been able to show any evidence of contraband or weapons in the form of guns yet?

"see how Urban in his report started with commando raid massacre and ended with Iran. very clever misdirection. so now iran is really to blame for why israel machine guns people delivering baby food?"

im glad you saw that misdirection too. despicable broadcasting from the bbc.

"Hamas, is a terrorist organisation (as classified by the UK, EU, USA, Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan and Jordan - see below)."

ah the so called 'coalition of the willing' - need i add anything else?

as ive written elsewhere think of hamas as irgun or stern .

as for the 8000 rockets that israeli representatives/propagandists continue to complain against across the bbc and other uk networks without any serious challenge (mostly silence) - the palestinians have fired over the last 8 years with around 20 israeli fatalities in total - during the same period the israelis killed around 3500 palestinians of all ages male and female.

cast lead resulted in 1400 palestinian deaths and some 5000 injured. during this time israel made some 3000 iaf sorties dropping 1000 tons of explosives along with missile attacks from its navy - they used white phosphorous, dime and jdam bombs .. and yet not a whisper from any of the nn team (or across the bbc news network)- during the attack the palestinians fired some 570 mostly rudimentary rockets and 200 mortars into israel.

figures from Norman G. Finkelstein - 'This Time We Went Too Far'

PAINTBALLING (#40)

Hi BYT. Am I next to 76 at lunch too? (:o)

As I implied before - something doesn't add up.

If I drop onto the deck of a boat carrying people who 'don't like me much', I am likely to get whacked, whether my weapon is paintball or bullets. Is there 'form' for Israeli paintballing? Or have they been reading my posts on this blog? I suppose it might have been one of those multitudinous holy days the Jews have, when certain things are required/forbidden. Was it the Sabbath? Use of fire prohibited?

Something doesn't add up.

Hague'll fix it.

@ Wendymann #41 - yes there has been evidence of weapons and cash which has been showed on tv networks across the world, including Al-Jazeera English.
Hamas is a terrorist organisation, not just because it has been classified as such, but because, they blow up innocent people by becoming suicide bombers, they kill both Israelis and Palestinians who are opposed to their philosphy, as well as having direct links to Iran. Before you even start saying that "Hamas is a democratically elected party" so was Hitler, and look how that turned out......

#36 barriesingleton

"Just because a bunch of men decide to call Hamas 'Terrorists', does not make it true, any more than it was true when all those 'scientists' said 'global warming' is caused by man."

Well actually shooting rockets indiscriminately into Israel is no better than denying supplies to Palestinian civilians in order that they may starve and become submissive.

On the global warming side the scientists are scientists as there are three different data sets that reinforce the view that human impact is affecting the climate.

There are thousands of scientists who have decades of experience in the field and there is little doubt that long run things will get warmer as things stand and obviously a global rise of 2C and greater is going to have a serious impact.

But then I am telling you this and in the past you have said that you did a "bit of R&D" and you think therefore the scientists could have it wrong.

TERRORISM - A REMINDER

Who carried out SHOCK AND AWE? Were they Terrorists? The clue is in the name they CHOSE FOR THE ACT.

They could have called it SWAT and SUCCOUR.

44

if the palestinians do nothing the israels will take their homes. if they fight the israelis take their homes. should they just sit there and be 'wiped off the map' by people who are very open about their intention of doing so? why should they submit to the native american model/solution?

if hamas isn't too bright in the use of force its because the israeli assassinate anyone with intelligence. also having a violent opposition suits the israeli purpose of buying time to make 'facts on the ground' and calling it 'defence'.

if the palestinians had any bright leaders left they could make israel ungovernable without killing anyone.

A FEW CERTAINTIES

Yahweh granted land in the Middle East to the Chosen People - in perpetuity.

Christ is the Son of 'God' and only saves Christians.

The majority on this planet are neither 'Chosen' nor Christian.

Armageddon will be a flop.

think I'll go to the middle east find a piece of land, put up a flag and say God gave it to me four thousand years ago....do you think it's a goer?

IN SURE AND CERTAIN................

#48

Spent many a long year trying to figure out who or what the God they all seem to believe in is. Even trying to believe in a figure of interminable love and GOODNESS. Can get just so far then it falls apart.

Of one thing I am pretty sure. Whoever HE is, I am pretty certain he is a Liar. Or worse, a trickster, a puppet master, sitting on high having a high old time seeing the tangled web he has woven, and finding it GOOD.

I am not even sure if those who make the biggest claims believe in HIM anyway, or just use HIM as a handy vacuous dim unprovable tenet upon which to build their own temples.

"yes there has been evidence of weapons and cash which has been showed on tv networks across the world, including Al-Jazeera English."

really weapons .. do you mean guns and bombs and hellfire misssiles with helicopters attached?

as for cash it can be lethal but in the circumstances i doubt any of the hapless elite israeli soldiers was actually hurt by it.


"Hamas is a terrorist organisation, not just because it has been classified as such, but because, they blow up innocent people by becoming suicide bombers, they kill both Israelis and Palestinians who are opposed to their philosphy, as well as having direct links to Iran."

alternatively hamas are a resistance movement, who try protect their people from near starvation, provide health care and education along with other social services, they defend the palestinian rights despite the israeli hellfire rockets and illegal invasions operation cast lead and illegal blockades even though their lives are at great risk because of extrajudicial murders by israel which has direct links to the uk, usa and eu. maybe from their point of view this is the 'axis of evil'.

" Before you even start saying that "Hamas is a democratically elected party" so was Hitler, and look how that turned out......"

hitler was an european and a christian , whose supremacist ideology led to the murder of many millions of innocents.

hamas is hardly in that league though some try to make that comparison in desperation. they are much more closely akin to irgun and stern.