成人论坛

According to
BP has had 拢12billion wiped off its value yesterday, and the bill for the disaster is expected to be $4billion by the end of the year.....Mind you, I suspect this is a temporary blip, and (if you want to invest) now is a good time to be buying up stock cheap.

On Israel the big surprise to me is that Turkey is taking a pretty tough line but then relations with Israel have been deteriorating for some months.

If the US offers to start shipping in the aid then if the genuine purpose is to cow the Palestinians then Israel has lost.

We know Hamas gets rockets in independently.

Fatah probably are not going to improve their position in Gaza through this phase - but then who knows.

Forgot to say that the Sue Lloyd Roberts film last night was quite clever in that despite very limited opportunities she did convey the prevailing mind set.

I loved the power failure as the government man tried to trot out the party line.

#40

Nothing wrong with talking to oneself, Brightyangthing, just so or to concentrate one's mind on the tasks planned.

As is usually the case, I'm in agreement with you about both sides, Ithat is both Hamas and Israel, having terrorist tendencies towards each other in particular. It's a shame that the situation in the region may be far too complicated ffor the Palestinians to follow the steps of Solidarity. At least the Poles did live on their own land.

Considering that political conflicts both here and on the global stage seem to be fought out as a pararell in the body of the 'voodoo doll', I think Nina Simone's song 'Ain't Got No - I Got Life',

I do actually see parallels between our lives and type of creativity which I shall not go in detail now but may do so later. Luckily I never got into drugs though have to fight the pushers of a different sort.

mim

On PMQ it will be interesting to see whether Harman tries to make a meal out of Laws as that could be quite a mistake as it plays badly with the public and as its a junior coalition member it would not touch the Tories as such.

Then again I suppose that the public don't take too much notice of PMQ.

BOOZE CULTURE

Big in the news (NOT on NN agenda yet but it's on mine)

I cannot help think that the wrong focuses are being looked at, because many of those doing the looking don't like what they see in the mirror.

One of my local MSP's wrote an interesting article on Youth drink culture in our local rag and I contacted him to congratulate but suggested that we (the 40/50 somethings/parents etc) need to look to our own examples first. His response to that was to shrug and uphold HIS adult right to 'have a few' after a hard days work.

Sooner we get our focus off the young and onto the role models who encourage the young (ie their parents and parents peers) the better. I know far too many people in that age group who are the worse for wear many nights, in front of their children and others, who are unfit for work, to drive to look after their children for 24 hours at a time, have weight and health issues associated with consuming far too many empty calories, many of them drinking at home. And they laugh and joke about how out of it they got and wear it as a badge of honour.

Yes, it is far too easy, and too cheap to buy alcohol and some of these intelligent adults claim to not realise how many units/how strong what they are drinking is.

And I do not swallow the argument that it is because our lives are so dreadful we NEED something to help us relax/forget. That's an excuse put out by those who need to excuse their habit and who don't want to appear to be kill joys.

Anyone who refuses drinks beyond a certain pint of their choosing faces the sort of goading and bullying tactics that if it was for any other reason would be under equality/human rights legislation. Unless of course they are the designated driver. And even then, Drink Driving is on the increase again.

Why are we drinking?

Because society/media, despite all the woe, see it as a right,a necessity and take delight in suggesting that NOTHING in life can go without a drink (alcoholic) or three or six in hand. Celebrate, commiserate, good weather, bad weather, birth, death, marriage or divorce, new job, bad day...... you name it, its a reason you NEED to have a drink.

PRICE, unless it is a horrendous prohibition style hike, will make little difference.

It is a culture change that is needed. Little by little (and it largely happened with smoking) drinking to excess, too frequently, for ANY reason has got to be seen as unacceptable rather than carry a 鈥榳ell done mate - carry on鈥� message. It will take time. And it needs good examples setting and people prepared to walk away from social situations and friends who are going too far. And be prepared to state honestly that being drunk makes people unpleasant (not FUN) to be with.

p.s. I am NOT teetotal! I practice what I preach. A gourmet who is NOT a glutton; a drinker who is not a drunk.

Hello,

I would like to make a comment about the previous programm. It's about the topic of Israel and it has to do with the spokesmen of Israel and Fatah and also the female peace activist.

I would like to express my neutrality and objectivity in this debate. I am not so much concerned about what the Palestinians and Israelis do to each other. I am however more worried about the discours used by the three parties.

First up was the activist. Kirsty Wark asked to important questions. Were their plans for sytematic violence on board of the Turkish ship? And what was the goal of that particular ship? Provocation or aid? The activist answered completely off topic. She reproduced her discours. Same for the Fatah man. Asked about the Fatah view of the naval blockade he rehearsed his discours of a unified front. There is no unified Palestinian front. The presentor of Newsnight had to stop them and ask again and again for correct answers. Isn't that what critical journalism means? Deconstruct the obvious and go straight to the essence.

In the case of Mark Regev there was criticism. He was put to the test by the journalist, as it should be. But why could the other get away with their discours (in the full linguistical and sociological meaning of the word)? Then you get answers in some sort of objective zone.

Should BP be taken over - or broken up in the US as some noises seem to be suggesting - will that lead to many job losses over here.

What with BP on the rocks whilst the south Med countries are grappling with their state debts you don't get a really good feeling about the economy over the next eighteen months.

Especially as the coalition are going to have to make the cuts that have been caused by excessive Labour reliance on credit and lax financial sector rules.

Inevitably I like the noises that Vince Cable is making about breaking up the banks into retail and investment components that are not too big but then this has to be translated into action via the coalition.

I think the Israelis have acted in a very foolish manner,as Winston Churchill once said " more JAW JAW and less WAR WAR "

Whats the bobby aunte
politics show Sunday the one show Monday
selling cambells book
remind me how many childrens and womens dead
in Iraq due 2 dodgy paperwork my tv lic tax on that
you vilify bnp and the like 2 my knowledge they didn't tell porkys

no more tv lic for me

Where are we with AfPak and the surge?

It has to be good news - possibly great news - that the number three in al Qaeda has been killed by a drone. More troops are coming into the arena.

But then if al Qaeda has transmuted into a new form via cooperation with the Pakistan Taliban perhaps it changes little.

Are the Afghan and Pakistan Talibs becoming closer or more distant?

I assume on the one hand that the Talibs are trying to kill government representatives but I still wonder how much tacit cooperation there is over poppy production and distribution for instance.

Not that it has any real relevance but in reply to a few comments.

I watched NN on the iplayer. Kirsty mispronounced 'Regev' and one word on the papers at the end, other than that she did a fine job. She was dressed thoughtfully as well.

I am quite interested in the new Comres poll. It suggests that voters don't know what Lib Dems stand for in the coalition. That's disappointing but after two weeks in he first coalition for seventy years its hardly surprising and probably only to be expected.

But it does show to me that the Tories were the right choice because of goodwill and maths and distinct identities.

If the Lib Dems had gone in with Labour they would have been vulnerable to being swallowed.

So given the propaganda that now Lib Dem voters were switching to Labour it is odd that the same poll shows:

"The political upheavals of the last month have had little impact on voting intentions, according to ComRes. It puts the Conservatives on 37 per cent, down one point since the last ComRes survey for The Independent on Sunday on 16 May. Labour is on 33 per cent (down one) and the Lib Dems on 21 per cent (unchanged)"

But for me the biggy is:

"There was overwhelming support for the suggestion that first-past-the-post voting for Westminster should be replaced by a "system that reflects more accurately the proportion of votes cast for each party", with 78 per cent agreeing and just 18 per cent disagreeing." Bear in mind there is no campaign to create such figures - just facts.

David Cameron is broad minded and will see that if he is perceived in the long run to be hampering the desires of such a large majority the Tories could pay a price. But can he persuade the party?

Lord Croquet Prescott, the champion of working people and banks, will no doubt see this as a challenge to the right of Labour to be the government from time to time as it is their turn to fix the boundaries with no need to rely on the power of their ideas to create a majority.

First hand experience

Even the 成人论坛 is full of the sillies. Not that it has affected in any way reding with intererst and concentration Chapter 7 of Barack Obama's 'Dreams from my Father'.

I might make a habit of coming tto the White City.

mim

seems a small group within the Israeli cabinet OKed this assault - DESPITE the flotilla still being in International Waters. They then under-equipped the assault force on the attack on the main ship (as the NN piece showed), leading to the almost certain attempted defence by the activists. Which then led to the murders of the sailors/peace activists - this is truly an act of war.

again, as last night's piece said, if the Israeli Govt had actually wanted to stop this peacefully, they would have gone in during the day, NOT a night-time military raid!

--could it be that there is a clique within the Israeli cabinet that is actually SEEKING to isolate Israel from the rest of the world? Why would that Israeli propagandist not tell us who ordered this raid?

Israel is used to be able to ignore the world community with impunity, and Obama's spokesman last night made it plain the US will continue to support them in that behaviour (very well done getting him to admit that, btw, instead of the sound-bite 'concern' he had intended to spin).

but this time i doubt it is going to go away - for Israel to lose the support of Turkey is an INCREDIBLY important geo-political shift, it might the case that the war-criminals in the UK and US will continue to support Israel no matter what, but despite 'Full Spectrum Dominance' even those two highly militarised nations will find it difficult to maintain support for Israel much longer - already in the UK there are strident calls for military sanctions to be placed on Israel.

that is the absolute LEAST the rest of the World should be doing.

we need international UN troops on the borders, controlling the checkpoints in to Gaza and the West Bank, and i would strongly suggest China, Russia, and South African troops (Japan might have an interest in giving the financial aid for South Africa to do so).

israel might think this is all going to go away, that its instant response to blanket the media with its own version is going to work - but it isn't. Because NOW we are going to hear the truth slowly come out, and Israel will be forced to retreat on every step.

what kind of a World do we live in that so many Peace Activists have to be MURDERED before the World's media wakes up and starts reporting the Gaza tragedy - aye, even holocaust?

we deserve a better world than this, all of us.

WAS THE OIL SPILL DELIBERATE? ARE WE FOLLOWING THE MONEY??

When you look at 9/11 in terms of who gained, it all makes sense. Should we be looking at this disaster in the same way? It is reported that there was unusual activity in the money markets - specifically related to American Airlines, and United. Anyone know of odd trading in BP, or oil generally, BEFORE the event?

WE DESERVE A BETTER WORLD (#15)

D'accord!

But under which god Gnu? And are YOU going to tell the gods that 'lost'?

AH YES BUT (#6)

How do you test an emerging adult for alcohol dependency?

Give them that first drink. The FIRST drink is the only one that matters. It makes the second MORE LIKELY - whether or not you 'have the gene'. Drinking solvents is NOT WHAT NATURE INTENDED.

Get the family tree out and put a ring round all the 'worst for wear' rellies. Then stick to the soft stuff. (:o)

My grandfather was an alcoholic. My grandmother's brother was a serious user. Fortunately, I am fully incompetent without it.

when 'things' happen Kirsty just won't do (and I love her) neither will Gavin or Emily...only Jeremy can provide the gravitas and attention, take yesterday with all the pallaver in the Middle East or today with the madness up in the lake disrict Jeremy will be on duty. I appreciate he needs time off but a million quid a year in these straightened times he should be in for the 'big stories' he is under used in the elction coverage and surely prducers must know a Paxman on the credits must put a million on the audience ratings. There are enough 'slow Newsnights' but if it is breaking..it must be Paxman. The previous producer/editor would have insisted....

The shooting in Cumbria is absolutely horrific. My deepest sympathy to those who have lost their loved ones, and a speedy recovery to the injured. :o(

PRESENT(ER) AND CORRECT

#12
Annunciation NOT pronunciation is the issue for many I think Flicks. You can fancy the pants off her all you like.

#19
Stevie

I was just musing myself that I have often noted JP at his best when the requirement was not only knowledge but a combination of gravitas and compassion without slipping into mawkishness.

His vocal Timbre, simplicity of style (No red socks PLEASE) facial expression, body language all seem to sit well in such circumstances and I am far from an uncritical fan.

On simply wonders at the frame of mind of someone who can become so seemingly violent and irrational so suddenly and much may now never be known.

What is happening at NATO given that one of it's members ships was attacked in international waters? Will Newsnight look into this, or is it too busy finding an angle which will pin the blame on Iran?

WATER WATER EVERYWHERE............AND ALL THE BARDS DID DRINK?

#18

Good grief, I think I need a drink. My Trypong id Carp tobnigt (#21)!

Thank goodness I'm a closet control freak.

If the terrorist organisation Hamas is so concerned about its electorate, why have they stopped Israel delivering humanitarian aid to Gaza?
Source:

I am very very sorry to say that, as in China, we are likely to see an increased frequency of such events as witnessed in cumbria and derbyshire today.

Human beings are not designed to live as we now do.

Oh 'boy', didn't I feel the excitement from the 'original' silly willies. First there was a 'reincarnation' of prof jules, a kind of melange in looks between Jeremy and himself, then from the other one, db the clown with a moustache while at the same time trying to earn some dosh on the side by sending 'envoys' round. And they weren't only males, no, females as well.

But, Obama beat them all getting my full attention when talking about the need for change and his first job as a re-organiser of community life in the USA and hope of actually making a difference on a larger scale in the future. He was 22 at the time. I guess it's destiny combined with huge application, intelligence, heart /the whites would not have voted for him otherwise, I shouldn't think/ and perseverence.

M

#25
What factors are you citing as contributory to such horrors Jericoa? in places like Whitehaven, Dunblane, Hungerford.......?

#26 addendum

and then, after fiddling with a laptop, 'prof jules' went into Bucks

did Obama talk about big bucks to the effect of at least 38 million /or was it billion?/

who's been promised what and how much??

M

#21

'You can fancy the pants off her all you like.'

You see I dont just want the news

I favour fauve colour over a Poussin straight line

Struggling difficultness; those trying to be

a loose line finding itself

to fade off center.

There were some smart visual things going on last night and it usually happens when Kirsty presents so maybe she also visually directs, I dont know but its a pity it goes un-noticed . She did it last time the Israelis and Palestinians went at it - plenty of strong visually intelligent graphics.

To my chagrin nobody's mentioned Louise Bourgeois. Was that no good and not interesting? Unfortunately, I haven't been able to watch it yet, having been too busy at the 成人论坛.

mim

AIN'T THAT THE TRUTH (#25)

And every 'advance' takes us farther from any chance of sustainable life. One tiny nudge from Nature or Cosmos and we will be in a bad post-apocalyps movie.

Nick'll fix it.

"Tim Whewell is in Gaza for us..."

As expected.

Is anyone in Israel, to report on the situation? You know; that democratic country in a sea of reactionary Islam.

One awaits as to when Newsnight reporters will ask questions such as those raised below:

The way Israeli and others commentators are raising questions on the flotilla fallacy is getting pointed and penetrating by the hour. A few examples:

Ben Caspit, Maariv: What made them do this foolishness, from failure to fiasco!

Ari Shavit, Haaretz: Are the action's planner smarter than my eleven year old?

Ethan Bonner, NYT: What Israel gains from this clockwork of complications
Gideon Levy, Haaretz : How come the Gaza flotilla drives Israel into a sea of stupidity

Note to Jeremy: nice to see you back tonight. Next time you get an Israeli or an American urging Hamas to reject violence, why don't you ask when Israel is ready to do the same?

Since September 2000, 124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians, whilst the reverse figure is 1,441. Surely the onus must be on Israel to renounce violence.

Outstanding Newsnight on the massacre in Cumbria tonight - from Peter Marshall and also the studio debate with Jeremy, Professor Wilson, Keith Vaz et al. I found the Professor's assessment fascinating, of how a person could just suddenly become a serial killer and in such a tightly knit community. I agree that no amount of gun control legislation could have prevented this tragedy, and that the most sensible thing to do was to wait until the dust had settled. Also excellent interview by Jeremy with Crowley too.

"The presentor of Newsnight had to stop them and ask again and again for correct answers."
they didnt answer because the question was irrelevant and a misdirection.

"Where are we with AfPak and the surge?"
our troops levels will reach 150 000 (300 000 if one includes the mercenaries) and the usa timetable for iran is on track with sanctions for june 21st.

the pak taliban which are supported by india and usa/uk are still trying to destabilise pak along with the now ever increasing blackwater-xe operatives.

"Are the Afghan and Pakistan Talibs becoming closer or more distant?"
one is a natural resistance movement the other is funded and armed by external powers to pakistan.

"could it be that there is a clique within the Israeli cabinet that is actually SEEKING to isolate Israel from the rest of the world?"
would only make sense if they are planning to go in 'alone' regard to iran.

"What is happening at NATO given that one of it's members ships was attacked in international waters? Will Newsnight look into this, or is it too busy finding an angle which will pin the blame on Iran?"
cameron said 'i am a friend of israel'. no need to ask clinton or obama.

have to say cameron and hague performed to the israeli tune rather than the one that required justice and the breaking of the siege.

as a good friend of israel surely cameron needed to send in the navy to help protect the next batch of peaceniks to deliver goods to the needy gazans.

instead just the mealy mouthed words as if the rest of the world was listening to him and his sidekick.

anyway whats so great about being a friend of israel - as if its a great badge of honor - whilst 1.5 million gazans are suffering ?

@ Wendymann #36 - since WHEN has India EVER supported the Pakistani Taliban? That is a libellous remark! India has been subjected to Pakistani Taliban terrorists such as the massacre at the Indian Parliament, to the Mumbai massacre in 2008 to the atrocities in Kashmir and other parts of India.

"I found the Professor's assessment fascinating, of how a person could just suddenly become a serial killer and in such a tightly knit community."

serial killer .. suicide attacker ..

Brightyangthing

Do you know what? Susan Boyle has been adding wings to my gliding and twirling and when I was by the 成人论坛 this afternoon I couldn't help myself and kind of mucked about in front of all the lunchbreakers and sunbathers to her 'I am who I was born to be', not only a dancer but a mucker about as well. My only hope that I do actually make people laugh occasionally, apart from stirring most of them to the state of utter confusion, in fact, more and more and more and more!!!!

I especially enjoy confusing the academics and voodoo dolls' engineers. I get unbelievable kicks out of it. They do take themselves awfully seriously, even those who claim they are 'funny'.

By the way, in the song I've just mentioned, Susan sings about not being scared of facing darkness as a child while myself, before falling asleep, I used to tell Hitler I wasn't scared of him so the 'English Hitler' doesn't have an iota of a chance of success with me, nor am I interested in anybody who's prepared to 'represent' him.

mim

#40 from previous page

Depends whose sword, Brightyangthing, and under what circumstances though a pen does have its particular functions and uses, even in aiding the sword, and vice versa. Times are changing and will be changing further, of that I have no doubt.

mim

A well handled piece on the Cumbrian shootings with a good balance of ideas that were sensitive to the tragedy.

I tend to agree with the general thrust that on the balance of the information available right now there need not be a change to the gun laws.

I gather that what tipped him over the edge seems to have been a will and his sibling was one of the first to die.

Its all terribly sad but is thankfully a very rare event.

I hope Tim Whewell is taking care in Gaza as interesting though it is we don't want to see another journalist kidnapped .... but I'm glad he got his report done first.

I think waht will change things there may not be the UN or the US and certainly not St Blair of Iraq.

If Turkey and Egypt coordinate they would bring heavy regional pressure and neither has any desire to help terrorists.

But I hope Turkey does not send in a warship.

If the border with Egypt is de facto open again then they don't need top come in via the sea.

If they have to bring in heavy equipment then surely the US could inspect and guarantee the cargo.

#36 wendyman

"one is a natural resistance movement the other is funded and armed by external powers to pakistan."

I was kinda hoping for something meatier from Newsnight actually and I am led to believe that the shifting allegiances and economic conditions mean its not quite that easy.

There clearly has to be some level of coordination between them and I understood that both actually got their most significant funds from drugs.

But it would be good to refine it down to see is it a totally regional issue with different patterns in each area that transform as militias chaotically come and go or is there a clearer pattern of cooperation and strategy?

If so does that mean there is a possibility of winning by cutting off the head?

'Vice President Joseph Biden predicted Wednesday night that the United States will add between 700,000 and 1.4 million workers to the list of the employed by year's end -- and in the process mute the administration's critics.'

I am no expert but I would have thought that we would be more likely to be in an inverse pattern, Newsnight?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

~46 cont:

what daily life is like in Occupied palestine:



why could it be happening? One possible reason:




the realistic appraisal of what the USA will do during this issue:




and finally,




what is this mall cabal attempting to achieve by putting Israel beyond 'the pale'?? #15

attempted repost #56:

Posting:
Crowley, in his spirited defence of Israel's actions, claimed that "Hamas has purposely chosen NOT to join the Peace Process..." - this has a vague odour associated with fertile soil.

here is a news report from aug 2006, Hamas within Israel had decided to accept the two state solution, and was ready to sign to accept 'Israel's right to exist'. This would have been historic - and was prevented by an alliance between external Hamas, and Israeli hawks, who used the kidnapping as an excuse to launch the recent war against Lebanon, This, obviously, prevented any acceptance of Israel by Hamas within Gaza - having Israel and the 'world community' decide that Hamas was *only* a terrorist organisation, and not also a parliamentary party that had democratically won the majority of the Palestinian parliament, also vastly reduced the possibility of peace between Israel, and the Palestinian people.



-why it then became impossible for Hamas to be able to offer that to Israel (and imagine after the military assault on Gaza itself too!!), also the imbalance between the two positions as commonly represented:




Israel's behaviour in this instance is *completely* unacceptable, anyone who is not part of the neo-con Operation Mind[bleep} that is middle east warfare/religious fundamentalism can see that. Crowley reveals himself, but Clinton remains interesting..!

the guy was just full of organic manure, on so many levels. "we've opened up the process to anyone who wants to play a constructive role" - Sir Appleby couldn't have come up with a more disingenuous - some less Parliamentary might call it an outright lie - answer. As those articles from that period show, Hamas in Gaza was willing to be a player in the Peace-process, just like Sinn Fein/pIRA in Northern Ireland for that successful peace process. Hamas offered peace to Israel, including holding a one year unilateral ceasefire, but extremist Hamas and Israel combined prevented that, by kidnapping an Israeli soldier, and using that as an excuse to invade the Lebanon, with thousands of civilian deaths and entire cities and regions in the country devastated.

for Crowley to omit that, let alone the international law flouting, human rights ignoring, HOLOCAUST against Gaza last year, PLUS the assassination of key Hamas officials (using UK passports in at least one well known case) - and then this 'Crowley' (a shame to the name!) demands that PALESTINIANS stops behaving like terrorists, and come honestly to the Peace Table??

the ratio of murders between the two sides in the last 3 or so years is this - not parity, where there are equal losses, not 5 Palestinians for every Israeli, not 10-1, or even what the Nazis used in their Occupied Territory - 20/25-1.

no, its ONE HUNDRED TO ONE.

set against the 40 or so Israelis that have lost their lives to those rocket attacks, is the roughly 4000 Palestinians that have died from Israeli rocket attacks, tank artillery, missile artillery, helicopter gunships, and IDF troops, just in the last few years.

"Security"? It would be argued by any neutral observer that it is clearly the *Palestinians* who require more security.


btw, if any of you doubt this is about a pure land-grab by a more powerful state against a weaker people, please read this article (the debate afterwards goes on a bit, and gets boring at a couple of points, i warn you. :) )

"We will protect a united Jerusalem and we will protect the central settlement blocs," Olmert told Israel's Channel 2 Television.

"Maale Adumim is part of Israel, Gush Etzion is part of Israel, Ariel will be part of the state of Israel," he said.

"The (future) borders are not where the state of Israel is today," he added. "

"mall cabal" should be "small cabal".

#35

Mistress76uk

The prof, David, was saying commonplace stuff. Ask almost anybody and they'll tell you that some people kill out of jealousy, frustration, isolation, etc., while billions of others just learn how to cope with failure which is part of almost anybody's life all the way from childhood to the inevitable end. It could be failure with others but also with oneself.

I could expand on this but am now in a hurry to push off.

mim

Serious questions for Vince Cable

There is much talk by those noted in the financial world about hyper-inflation although no one talks of this in the mainstream media.

Are there contingency plans for the public if so what are they ?
---------------------------
Someone wanted to see Louise Bourgeois:-

More labour lies uncovered.....

Max Keiser advocates all people stop buying coke (drink) to invoke game theory and force the hedge funds to short sell as oppose to the rioting in Greece where those targeted will make money on insurance. So max is about using the very tactics used by hedgefunds against the super rich. All I can say is that I will not be buying any coke again, not that I have recently anyway. Realistically it wont work Max - many millions of people will not do that.

Any other idea's ?

@ Gnu #48 - I love the way that certain people claim to be an expert in international maritime law..........and then quote from dodgy messageboards. Sigh.

@ Mim # 50 - From what I gather in today's press, it seems that there was a family feud about a will. However, this does not explain why he ended up shooting random people. If he had shot the people involved, then I could follow the argument of jealousy/frustration/isolation etc. What intrigues me is why he went on a shooting spree killing random people. Look forward to hearing more from you.

@ Ecolizzy #52 - nothing surprises me anymore :o(

...and in today's Times, we see that the "peace" flotilla does indeed have links to terrorism.

Source:

Significant

This is significant in that when I looked through FSA's ten years of press releases they look to have never fined JP Morgan. (The bank used by US Govt and probably UK as well) The gold nuts consider them to manipulate the gold/silver market on behalf of govts:-



Margret your getting more saucy by the day.

#553 Flicks

You know Flicks I think you have hit upon the crux of a great many of our financial/debt/economic problems.

In the affluent west too few people are prepared to give up their freedoms and their choices for the possible greater good. Be it drinking cola, using water, driving big cars (or small sporty ones), flying around the world.......

Too few would be prepared to make the sacrifices. I too often hear the cry 'well why should I if he/she/they don't' which is entirely missing the point of altruism.

Armageddon Now.

If our police force hadn't experienced the radical-leftest interference over the years and allowed themselves to be castrated - and more, not less firearms licence holders - maybe the Gunman would've killed and injured less. Today we have an elite force of policemen/women who are trained in the use of firearms. Invariably they are too far away from where the action is and when they do get into position, over their shoulder is a lawyer armed with a camcorder and a calculator and a communications officer trained in the art of communicating with a local community leader. Taking lethal action against a man with a gun in this country is riddled with health and safety issues, fear of prosecution etc. Mind you though, a fella with a table leg in a plastic bag lost his life when armed police mistook him for a gunman, his previous known violent past and reputation went before him that fateful day.
What did people do yesterday when this gunman drove around randomly killing? ..they hid away, locked their doors and hoped the police would spring into action. After the gunman had killed 12, injured many more and finally, half an hour after the gunman killed himself...the police finally sprung into action, they got their man, albeit probably headless due to shotgun damage. I would like to echo the fine words our home secretary Teresa May said about our security forces...but I can't.

Israel has a nuke sub at the ready, they are twitching for Iran. Can I suggest the media try and consider the bigger picture regarding this conflict. Israel, by the way sold Nukes to South Africa.
In exchange, Israel got 'race specific biological weaponry'...GO1, Something for you to chew over there buddy.

Obama's gonna sue BP. Yeap, the oil is leaking all over the place, BP are trying everything to stop the leak but Obama starts to talk like a Chicago lawyer. The ex community activist come walking on water President is proving himself to be potentially as disasterious as that other useless President of the 70s. The rabid anti-Semitic Jimmy 'the peanut' Carter. He, it is argued, was responsible for the rise of radical Islam in Iran. I wonder what Obama's legacy will be. I don't know me-self but I won't be good...it won't be good.

YOU GOTTA HAVE FRIENDS

Thinking about Cumbria and Israel.

We live in a society that seems to be strong on acquaintances and low on REAL friends. REAL Friends, be they of the individual or the state, understand without needing to be told; support in silence, in word and in deed as needed; are not afraid to tell you when they think you are getting it wrong; don't takes sides or interfere.......

REAL friends support, protect and sometimes judge harshly too. They tell the truth, sometimes gently, sometimes sharply. They don't hold back when there is need. They are prepared to sacrifice, even the friendship to do what is right.

Who and where were the REAL friends of Mr Bird?
Who and where are the REAL friends of Israel?

#25


Such events are a product of a broken psychy. They are not born broken, mostly the potential for such acts is repressed by environmental (social) factors, when those are eroded the potential for the psychy to break increases. Simple as.

The increased frequency will simply be as function of increased pressure in general and a lack of a tangible alternative or outlet ... no job security, no pension (to speak of) no spiritual guidance, no broader sense of genuine community and comaradery ( he always said 'hello, how are you' to neighbours in the street does not count I am afraid).

Not everyone has the capacity for what 'birdy' has done, there will be personality factors and access to arms factors at play also (but note much of the attacks in china were with knives). Interestingly in this country access to arms is much easier in rural communities with farming links, not in big cities.

To be fair it could go one of 2 ways, as the heat gets turned up via the 'austerity' measures coming down the pipe at us, a new vision could form leading to a new sense of belonging, community and comaradery, if that does not emerge then you will see more 'attacks on society' like this.

His acts are 'evil' but I doubt he himself could be considered 'evil' no more so than a broken washing machine could be considered to be so.


It is simply a tragedy.

#54

Ask gnu, Mistress76uk, he knows much more about such matters than myself. I am a victim, not a murderer or a criminal.

Apart from jealousy and misplaced 'passions', some individuals also kill out of thirst for dubious power, delusions and megalomenia.

mim

59

friendship happens through sympathy so if you have sympathy for a one race based state, uber nationalism and do not like human rights for all....

the blockade of gaza gives hamas who control the supplies a knife to the throat of every citizen in gaza? which just keeps them in power? seems obvious?

north korea.

talking of authoritarian leadership worship why is it illegal in the uk to openly discuss who can be head of state? why is the uk national oath to protect one family and their privileges? why is the uk national song about one person? why are the representatives of the people name called as 'common' who work in a 'house of commons'? why is the uk population the most watched in the west? why are all agents of the state sworn to protect one family and not the people and their freedoms? is this the basis of a 'good' state?

#52: yet according to NN net working-immigration from non-EU countries last year was MINUS 8000!

i tend to trust *their* figures.

#54: "an expert in maritime law"? I but repeated NN's own journalist's points. What would the US do if Canada floated its fleet down and unilaterally placed a trade embargo upon the US? Militarily boarding any ships that approached the US? There would be a LOT more talk about "international waters", "illegal (non-UN sanctioned) blockades", and "Act of War" i suspect.

as for "dodgy message-boards", the articles published there were openly available at the time to be checked by the other posters. Blame the messenger?

#55: yet you are entirely unconcerned about the terrorists on the Israeli side? These so-called Turkish terrorists were unarmed, taking food and aid through an illegal blockade to desperate people. The Regime that murdered over 10 peace activists is the *real* terrorists, a shame you cannot see that.

#58:

"
Israel has a nuke sub at the ready, they are twitching for Iran. Can I suggest the media try and consider the bigger picture regarding this conflict. Israel, by the way sold Nukes to South Africa.
In exchange, Israel got 'race specific biological weaponry'...GO1, Something for you to chew over there buddy."

do you have a link on the second part of that? I only saw a report they had had discussions, i hadn't realised there was actually a trade, let alone with involving bio-chemical WMD!


"Obama's gonna sue BP."


no doubt. Still i wonder though - i was informed that Halliburton had built that concrete cap that exploded, and Halliburton would undoubtedly benefit from a BP stock-market failure. Note also that BP is apparently a reservoir of UK pension funds, and how previously pension funds have been 'tapped' for the financial assets. What's *really* going down out there?


#59: that is a good way to judge friends on - by how truthful, and when needed brutally truthful they are.

#63: an authoritarian State requires an obvious enemy to direct anger at the 'Other' at, so much better when the target is also an essential part of the supposed enemies infrastructure.

that journalist, "whelan"? What a biassed crock. He mentioned that hamas "made money" on those underground tunnels that were once used to bring in more aid and goods than Israel/Egypt allowed - well DUH!! Who put in the investment needed to build them? Plus, Hamas is the properly elected Govt of Gaza - this is not "tribute", as this 'whelan' tried to claim - it is simply *tax*. Of COURSE the Gazan Govt places an import tax - EVERY OTHER GOVT IN THE WORLD DOES TOO!! It pays for schools, hospitals etc, to make up for the lack of internal market caused by Israel's almost complete sanctions regime. This guys reporting was so skewed, so biassed, it would make a journalist in the USSR blush.

i would not even think of defending some of Hamas's more religious/violent tendencies, but the State of Israel's crimes and fundamentalism makes that pale in comparison.

Jericoa
#60 (27/25)

Apologies if I am coming to this late. Friends in need gave me a 鈥榣ady wot lunches鈥� day 鈥� and very beautiful it was too.

Interesting that you were probably composing/posting at the same time I was posting #59.

Community and real friendship/connection link the two.
鈥�......he always said 'hello, how are you' to neighbours in the street does not count I am afraid鈥�

A case in point.

鈥淚nterestingly in this country access to arms is much easier in rural communities with farming links, not in big cities.鈥�

Very astute. Not really surprising given our fairly strict and well regulated gun laws at present (unlike in the US of A where the shock/horror of mass shootings, often campus or work place based are met with cries of 鈥楬ow鈥�. Their fundamental right to for all citizens to defend their rights and property with arms at all places/all times MAY just have some bearing on the situation don鈥檛 you think. And in the country, justification (garden/farm land eaten by rabbits/deer etc) are easy to come by.

I hope your first scenario for the playing out of the future of society.

#62 JauntyCyclist

Not sure of your overall point but I would actually take exception to ....鈥� friendship happens through sympathy鈥� in the nicest possible way. I actually think (true in my case) that the best, truest friendships MAY involve EMPATHY but may often survive longest because of something much deeper, much truer and often much tougher 鈥� that is difference and honesty. Perhaps it is me who is 鈥榦dd鈥�, but my truest and greatest friends are ones with whom there is empathy but not always sympathy, and frequently disagreement. But LOVE, respect, acceptance and understanding shine bright.

I would be very very suspicious of anyone who was too 鈥榮ympathetic and agreeable鈥�.

"since WHEN has India EVER supported the Pakistani Taliban? That is a libellous remark! India has been subjected to Pakistani Taliban terrorists such as the massacre at the Indian Parliament, to the Mumbai massacre in 2008 to the atrocities in Kashmir and other parts of India. "

you do know that the so called pakistani taliban are in part tajeks and uzbeks .. these being the partners within the northern alliance who were / are funded by the soviets and the indians ?

you do know that pak military have found indian weapons cache whilst flushing out these so called pak taliban?

you do know that both the indian prime minister and the usa have acknowledged this grievance?

you do know that the usa/india/uk have reinstated groups and are financing the bla (so called balochistan nationalists) and other groups from inside of afghanistan , the leader of the usa uk financed / backed (usa media/govt reporting) jundollah was captured and now in iranian hands.


actually you dont do you.