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29 October 2014
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Should we kill all the pigeons?

This page exists as an archive. If you would like to discuss this or other local topics or issues with other visitors to 成人论坛 Nottingham website, please visit our new .

Nottingham should follow Lincoln's lead in combating the pigeon problem. According to the Lincolnshire Echo, Lincoln City Council are proposing to reduce pigeon numbers in the High Street by...wait for it...spreading jelly on to the surfaces on which the pigeons usually perch. Apparently the pigeons don't like the feel of the jelly under their feet and move on to somewhere else. I have never heard of anything so ridiculous in my life (it's not April the first is it?). And the strategy doesn't even reduce pigeon numbers; it just shifts the problem on to another part of the city.

Jamie Wallis
Lincoln

Never mind the pigeons, get rid of beggards/big issue sellers!!!!!

Foz
UK

I really don't want to kill these creatures, (besides I haven't figured out a way), I just want them to get off my roof. There are 2 dozen and growing. If they could move I would appreciate it. My goal is to control their population. We started with 2 - 2 months ago, and now have 2 dozen. What can I do? At this rate i will soon be in a bird house.

Juls
Portsmouth VA

I work nights......and just after I get into bed after a grueling 12 Hr shift, them damn pigeons come and land on top of my bay window, just outside my bedroom.

This I dont mind, but when they start coo-ing, it drives me bananas !!!!!!!! dont shoot them, just rip their vocal chords out at birth, thats what I say !

Graham
Wirral

In war time it was "Tommy this and Tommy that and Tommy get your gun"- and pigeons saved many a valuable life during the wars, but in peace time Tommy and the pigeon are unwanted. We remember though.

Bill
Torquay, Devon

How terrible that most of your respondents think that pigeons should be killed, by shooting or other means. Many town squares and parks would be a duller place if it wearnt for thease intelegent and freindly little birds. It seems whenever there is a small problem the answer is to kill it, a rather pathectic responce there humain methods for stoping pigeons from taking roost, why should animals and in this case birds have to be subjected to cruelty, when all that this situation needs is for some forward thinking. Ken Livingston may agree with some of the answers given about killing thease birds but then he only pretends to care about animals for his own election gain? Killing of animals for the sake of a small group of iratated people is not a civerlised action!

Gary Hills, National Secretary Labour Animal Welfare Society
Nottingham, England

The biggest threat to this planet is the filthy so called human being`s that exist on it,leaving their excrement,urine,used condoms,vomit and syringes in shop doorways childrens parks ect. Give me a pigeon anytime.

Terry Healey
Plymouth

The Mountain come to Mahommet

I find it difficult to comprehend the thinking of ignorance - so I have brought the mountain to the masses

ETHOLOGY & THE PIGEON FANCIER
INTERTWINING LIVES OF PIGEON & MEN?
Ethology is the study of animal behaviour in relationship to human behavioural patterns. This science was once and in some circles still is considered to be heresy, with religious orders refusing to accept that man is an animal and not a supremely created being? Today Ethology is an accepted middle science, filling the gap between Zoology and Psychology; some would even say that it is an alternative to Philosophy and that its students seek Utopia. It is believed that by understanding animals and educating man that, he might understand himself better! That wars or strife may be avoided, even the stress of everyday life may be relieved!

Animals have a wealth of knowledge to teach us, or, to be more accurate, remind us of that which we have forgotten during the ages of our social evolution. Ethology does not deny the possibility of Devine creation but, accepts that there is a pattern of natural order throughout all inhabitant species upon this planet. As an applied science Ethology is finding many uses: the planning of housing for social groupings; environmental effects, order within the work place, cause and effect of stress and even military strategy!

There are witting and unwitting Ethologists', the witting may be scientists like Dr. Desmond Morris (The Naked Ape), or Otto Kohler (Prototypes of Human Communication Systems in Animals) and N. Tindbergen ( Combat and Threat Display in Animals). (See below for a list of recommended reading - click here). The unwitting may be artists or cartoonists that give animals human characteristics based upon observation; The pet owner that who treats the creature as an equal or substitute child and the wise observant pigeon fancier who develops an affinity by humanising his birds!

There are pigeons that build enormous nests, others provide barely a twig; this may be likened to the houseproud person, or the other who finds little satisfaction in anything but the barest of essentials. It is possible to find one thousand similarities within a pigeon loft that relate to human behaviour, yet that is only the tip of the iceberg because, further studies might reveal one thousand more!

Socially; man has become inferior to animals at this present moment in time. Through our worldly - technological advancement; we have forgotten our basic nature. Man has become de-sensitised throughout his advancement since Cro-Magnon; evolving very little physically but, having made an enormous "Quantum Leap" in a technological sense. Originally, he was a social, territorial hunter-gatherer, with a tribal established hierarchy; fighting only defensive wars until he became a "Scientist"! Mans' very first weapon was invented out of innocence, designed to eliminate physical contact and danger from the beast upon which he preyed. Prior to that point in time, his human conflicts would have been decided and mostly settled without death by animal gesticulation; the weak succumbing to dominant personality or recognised superior physical strength. How could early man know that by inventing the spear, it would lead to the Hydrogen Bomb?

How could he know that his deterrent of superior weaponry, could ever be used with such devastating effect against his own future generations? How could the inventor of harmless Polystyrene, know that it would one day be used to produce a Napalm bomb, or the chemist that produced selective weed-killer think that it would be used as a defoliant in the Vietnam war with such lasting catastrophic effect? WE HAVE BEEN DE-SENSITISED!

The family loving bomber pilot would be highly unlikely to ever murder innocent children or civilians in face to face confrontation. Yet; under orders he may drop a non discriminating bomb (the only animal that would do such a thing), with minimum personal danger but maximum devastating effect. He may be decorated as a hero for his action under fire, innocent of any crime; totally de-sensitised! Our society is based upon fear, fear of being a coward, where death is preferable to stigma. This fear is used by governments and their armies in the controlling of their troops.

Animals know no such fear, nor hero - coward ethics; they strut, display, assert their social standing, then settle to natural order; the very thing that technological man has forgotten! Every and any new advancement can become a weapon of potential weapon, miraculous medical cures, provided by bacteriological testing, may provide a weapon of war! An innocent science like Ethology could feasibly be used for psychological application against another lesser educated or malleable nation, employee in his place of work, or government wishing to control potential followers. Was this not done in recent history and isn't it still being done in various parts of the world today?

I have painted the worst possible scenario, an ideal world will never exist but, it is possible to understand animal behaviour patterns and by understanding apply them to our everyday life. The pigeon fancier is in a prime position to recognise these everyday natural events within his loft and by recognising them he has a glorious opportunity seldom afforded to others; to recognise himself, his hopes, needs, aspirations, reasons for actions and those of others around him! By preempting the problem so may it be avoided and disputes neutralised before they flare. Ethology could certainly help at R.P.R.A Regional level and save committee members an awful lot of wasted time!

From the very first pair bonding the pigeon will mate for life, only outside interference will alter events. This is also true of the majority of people, there will be minor flirtations, even a degree of promiscuity and the occasional clash of temperaments between mates. Outside influences take a variety of forms, social/working/environmental stress, continued illness, loss of attentive partner or mate, re-location of home, a younger or more attentive new partner, interference by an unwanted third party. The latter can possibly increase or destroy any motivation toward the bonding of heart and home (widowhood - obsessive parental opposition)! A strange analogy, but, how many marriages are made in hell and how many form stronger bonds through unwanted opposition? If one observes closely, the pattern of life is not dissimilar to our own but, the pigeon doesn't wage an ongoing war and may even re-pair to its original mate with success at some later date!

The pigeon will share an equal responsibility for parental life and this is becoming more of the norm in modern, happy human households. A single parent situation inside the loft is accepted without question, though the single parent may still have a lover. There are pigeons that prefer it that way, happy to raise a nest with nothing but casual acquaintance and this is becoming more socially acceptable amongst humans. Would anyone deny that we are refinding our basic social understanding, or that we are animals that have temporarily lost our way? This is unwitting Ethology in action!

Prisoner stock in an overcrowded loft become dejected, losing their lustre for life, nest raiding, egg breaking, fighting and bullying young birds. This is a direct product of social stress caused by lack of sufficient personal space and absolutely no different to humans in skyscraper blocks or substandard overcrowded inner city housing! An old faithful well settled pigeon that is sold for stock, may refuse to breed at its new location without extreme patience upon the part of the new owner. It has become institutionalised, stressed by loss of familiar surroundings, unhappy and unable to cope with changed situations.

Is this any different to the regular soldier who suddenly finds himself in a civilian, unfamiliar world and feels rejected, or even the long term worker who is relegated to a position of prideless unemployment? Where is the caring patient pigeon fancier who will council them back to normality as he would with his birds? This is also Ethology, not philosophy, it is understanding animal needs and acting accordingly!

The abmigration (Fly-away) of pigeons is no different than a human leaving an unacceptable place or situation, it is re-location, home/place of work; we do it all the time and yet we are not branded as worthless fools for this action. There are towns and villages devoid of educated youth, having abmigrigrated in search of working opportunity; too many people for too few jobs or insufficient satisfying personal space. Others descend upon hopefully more productive areas, only to find it no more hospitable; eventually they become the despondent part of a feral flock. But of course they are human, they should be above such self pitying, whingeing, none productive, socially unacceptable ways; but a man is a man (or animal) for all that, he is following a naturally progressive way!

Man has a variety of languages that he believes are unique to the human race, but animals also have language and dialect indigenous to local areas! The chaffinch learns its song from others of its species, but develops a localised dialect from other birds within its indigenous area. A chaffinch in a garden filled with blackbirds has a different dialect to one that came from a garden populated mainly by thrushes. Is this any different to "GEORDIE" or "BRUMMAGEN" within the British Isles, or localised dialect detectable village to village?

A female elephant bereaved of young will suckle the offspring of another; perhaps even kidnap, so too will a pigeon or even a human being. In China the Emperors were raised in this way, by suckling surrogate mothers; their own offspring having either died or been disposed of. Take away a pigeon's eggs or young, it goes immediately back to nest, but is this really any different than the maternal instinct of a mother in the third world who continually loses her children to famine or drought? She is only fulfilling an animal instinct to ensure or try to ensure the continuity of her family line or species (race). Yet we call them foolish, irresponsible and contributing towards their hunger! This is Ethology in action, not condescending philosophy, but recognising and understanding the basic animal pattern in mankind!

Dominance in animals may be observed in different ways; the rook takes the uppermost nest position, the baboon the highest point upon the rocks; a man forms this same kind of pyramid of status to assert his power. This power is found attractive to females and is part of a common mating display, partially attained by physical strength but mainly accreditable to intellectual strength and control of those around him! The dominant lion maintains a harem: mankind was also polygamous during his early years and it is still practised in some cultures today During medieval times, within the British Isles, it was law that the Lord of the Manor bedded every new bride of the village during the first week of marriage. This was to ensure that his superior genes flowed through his serfs and upgraded his human stock. The crafty serf would bed his future wife one week prior (at the pain of death) to upset the rulers plan; this also happens with animals and pigeons, but, it isn't always so ob!
vi!
ous. At one time it was thought to be a pointless exercise; thinking that the female would only conceive at the peak of fertility and copulation at that time. This is now known to be incorrect, because nature provides defence against the second mating. Sperm recognise each other, providing an army against future invasion, although only one may fertilise the egg, the remainder live on, destroying those of another body and remaining active for considerable time. (useful in polygamous "Bull System" matings) Whatever happens with beast or bird also happens with mankind!


Identifying the dominant pigeon is not as straight forward as observing baboons, but none the less dominant pigeons exist. Pigeon Fanciers often believe that these occupy the uppermost perch or boxes but, this is easily disproved; alter the loft furniture arrangement and they take up alternative positional situations. In a free mating situation, the dominant males may copulate with several females before choosing a permanent mate, naturally spreading his gene pool and placing his spermatozoan army against all others. During feeding from a communal tray, the dominant bird and chosen mate will stand astride occupying prime place, whilst others furtively peck at the perimeter.

There is a natural reason for this - food availability determines the balance of the sexes in a natural hostile world. In seasons of plenty more females are produced; seasons of famine more males and this provides a potential control of species population. (useful knowledge to the fancier when wishing to balance sexes) This also happens with mankind and when the balance is upset man introduces curbs of his own; as was once often the case in poorer nations. Females were sold into slavery or even murdered at birth, a mans wealth was determined by the number of daughters or wives that he could maintain. In the controlled environment of a pigeon loft, the sexes are usually balanced although that balance may be upset by seasonal change, with more birds of one sex than another.

This phenomena may be local, regional or national, dependant upon climatic change; with the birds recognising pending climatic conditions instinctively. The dominant bird may be even less obvious when fed individually in its box and competition removed. Pigeons are very good at accepting equally distributed wealth and man could learn a great deal from them!

A further display of dominance could appear at the water fountain or some other selected spot, a brick on the floor, a certain perch, or even the exit flap in a race pannier or nearest to the trough. The dominant male will continue to tread as many receptive females at every opportunity, challenged by dominant rivals whilst others passively look on. Even the happiest married hen might welcome his attentions hoping to secure the best possible genetic future with offspring vitality. (how often do they do this upon leaving a nest whilst sitting/rearing and preparing for a future clutch of eggs?)

Animals mark out territory; the dog that urinates upon the lamp post is asserting its dominance and control of territory; it does not do this in order that it might re-find its way home. In the wild the dominant male urinates upon the vanquished prone positioned, cowering rival; giving its distinctive smell and warning against future trespass. The Rhesus monkey defecates around its area and also upon any intruders; this may be likened to the greedy fancier who times an excess of race entries but we won't go into that subject any further, that is a matter for conscience! Man marks his area with boundary walls, or Voodoo effigies and gives his place his name, which remains until his removal, defeat or death.

Cities ruled the known world of the time from within walls, Athenians, Trojans, Spartans, Romans; the British Empire had the greatest wall of all, its coastline. Eventually the territories gain new independent dominant leadership with new colonialism emerging and this also happens with pigeons. Pigeons don't build walls but they do colonise space, a rocky cliff face, disused buildings, window ledges, the fanciers loft; forming a colony or social communal flock. They bond as a social group even whilst in flight and this may be seen when neighbouring flocks are exercising, joining for a moment, then splitting once again into recognised colonial order. Strangers are only allowed integration after an acceptable period of time, the stray will either settle or leave and much of its fate is decided by the colony but unnoticed by the fancier; mankind can learn a great deal from pigeons!

There are so many other things that I would like to say or write; but, my words are so often wasted upon the wind and it is so easy to make a misunderstood fool of oneself. Pigeon fanciers are unwitting Ethologist's, the secret of understanding life is all within a pigeon loft. Some see the very essence of the essential whilst others look and never see a single thing - this is what separates the best from the rest. Some like myself are so totally de-sensitised we take life far too much for granted and have hardened ourselves against adversity or other humans needs. We require the understanding of our basic natures and the best place to learn is in the loft. But, first one has to find within oneself all that technological man has forgotten since Cro - Magnon. It may be frightening, it could be a transformation, it will certainly be Ethology in Action!

STEVE SPINKS. THE THINKING PIGEON FANCIER.http://www.boglinmarsh.com


Spinksy
Blackpool, England

Feed em feed em feed em and then lace it with bromide or the equivalent.

Peter Murphy
Mansfield

Firstly may I say that humans are at very little risk in a health sense from pigeons. With the exception of ornithosis all pigeon diseases are host specific (they only affect their species) In the case of ornithosis - all birds carry this, but it would be a very rare and isolated case for it to pass to humans and never by casual contact. One would need to be in regular contact daily e.g handling.

Pigeon fanciers generally live to be a very old, due to the stress breaking factor of their hobby and rarely do they contact an illness from their birds. One affliction is known as 'Pigeon Fanciers Lung' - this is not an illness as such, but an allergy to feathers and bloom. Horse handlers (equestrian grooms) Farmers, dog breeders, asthmatics may also contact this allergy, but under a different name. One would be at greater risk from one's pet parrot or budgie - they can carry psittacosis (a dises of the psittacine species) and this has been known to affect and kill human beings. I believe that the only case of ornithosis via pigeon contact of ornithosis during the whole of the last century was during the 1930's when a bird handler at a zoo contacted the illness.

Pigeons, be they wild or domestic, pose very little threat, unless their droppings are allowed to accumulate and turn to dust, which is then inhaled upon a regular basis. Racing pigeons were used during the wars (in fact throughout history) to save many lives. The British pigeon fancy regularly donate in excess of 拢100,000 -00p per annum to various charities and have over the past few years donated in excess of 拢1 million to various causes.

To learn more factual information regarding pigeons please visit : www.boglinmarsh.com Read the A-Z of diseases, the chronicles and Ethology - then maybe one might be a little bit more appreciative of these birds. Another recommended area on site - A - Z of Fancy Breeds - where one may see them for their beauty in different varieties.

Spinksy
Blackpool

I think they should be terminated or else my roof will become coated in a white substance, which eventually turns green!!!

Steven Bleu
Nottingham

I live in a tower block in London where I'm constantly battling against the filthy flying rats to stop them from breeding on my balcony. About three years ago, while my son was still a baby I had a sick one throwing up orange vomit all over my window. I foolishly cleaned it off myself, risked giving myself a disease and then threw away the clothes I was wearing and had a hot bath. I think they should be culled.

Miranda
London

For the pigeons' perspective, check out Up the pigeons!

Frank Pigeon
London, UK

Pigeons are vermin and I think it's right to control the population. Keeping numbers down means less mess in the city centre and more food to go round to the pigeons that aren't killed.

R Harris
Nottingham

what diseases do pigeons carry that can hurt humans? if there is terminate them, because they pooping on her porch and laying eggs there if they get her sick i'm terminating every pigeon i see.

Greg
Country Club
Miami, United States

WE are overpopulated too, we have 4 billion people on this Earth (no wonder we have a hole in it) why don't we capture most of them and shot them? I must say whoever though of humans as more "intelligent" then any other animal is quite simpely DUMB.

We are the only living things that KILL ourselves, I mean how stupid can people get, for goodness sake we make a HAZARDOUS place for ourselves and slowly coming to the end of our days.

So why kill pigeons? (by the way eating meat gives you a 60% more chance of heart problems, and 50% more chance of cancer, so is that pigeon pie tasty now?) Yeah so they can fly, are smaller then us, have feathers and talk in a different language, it doesn't mean that they are worse then us, don't people give other people stuff that they don't want to have? (like AIDS) does that mean we have to shot the them?

I think that ANY animal can do as much(I mean like creating cars electricity etc...)but they know that by doing that they will kill the! planet, as far as I see the pigeons (which many people want to get rid of) are actualley MUCH smarter then us and if you DEFINITELY must get rid of them DON'T kill them! Try not letting them breed by blooking their nesting places OR for the people that don't like them becuase they can carry many harmful sicknesses, GIVE them clean water and food, it is us who actualley POISENED THEM!

And for the person that says"lets switch pigeons for doves" well lets kill all the black people and replace them with the white people or kill all the people who have dark hair and replace them with blondes. And if WE get a place on Mars and place all our cities there and destroy the ones here I GARENTEE you that only the strongest and desease free pigeons will survive, keeping the population to a minimum and ensuring that only the strong survive so that the Earth would have it's natural balance restored.

And for people who want to shot them, well how do you know if you are shooting a healthy pigeon that will provide your cat (or dog) with pleasure chasing it and WE need pigeons, they keep the natural bond still flowing, slowly and weakly but flowing. For people who want to send me a letter or note, my e-mail address i s magi_magus@hotmail.com

Julia
Toronto, Canada

Seems a typically well thought out idea. Lets kill them all and leave the hungry hoards of Rats to devour the heaps of MuckDonalds and kebabs left nightly. A real boost for environmantal health!?!

Andrew
Lenton

This is TERRIABLE,There is no need to kill pigons STOP DOING THIS SICKOS!!!!!!!!!

Sarah Marshall
Bathgate,Scotland

My people!! The pigeon threat has gone too long..We must propose the 'final solution' which is to round up the pigeon and have them work in sweing shops, before they are executed in a gass chamber...Please bear with me as I explain...All pigeons will be transported to these 'death camps' to work restlessly, until they will be killed....the pigeons have stolen all of germanys gold...we must reclaim it!! Heil Pigionitler!

Adolf Pigiontler
Germany

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Pigeon Archive Pages: [10] [9] [8] [7] [6] [5] [4] [3] [2] [1]


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